Rob's Sporadic Etymology Lesson

[Karel]

When I was in grade school I learned how to whistle (and make bird sounds) with my mouth almost completely closed.... Used to drive my teachers crazy.... Guess that's why Karel has a better command of the English language than I do.... Ssssssss!

[Listening to Rob's MIDI link]

And why I am so jealous of people who can whistle really well. But even you can pronounce Åse, with the Å like the a in ball, the s like any old s, and the e like the a in about. (Finally good examples!)

And while I certainly like compliments on my use of your beautiful language, I am quite certain I give my status of alien away with those small errors no native speaker would ever make, however sporadically.

Regards,

Karel

[IIC]

Lye,
We had a guy in high school who'd whistle the theme from "Lassie". The teacher would throw the wrong kid out then a couple minutes later the Lassie theme would start again. The teacher never figured out who it was.

------------billyjoe

In my 8th Grade Algebra Class we had windows that opened out...4 levels as I recall...When the teacher turned her back we'd fire wadded up notebook paper thru the openings...The higher the window the more points you got...Something like 100,75,50 and 25.

It was pretty fun.

Also, in High School, I was Captain of the Varsity Ditching Team...Do you know that I NEVER got caught???

Oh...The Good "OLE DAYS"...Louetta would've been proud

[billyjoe]

Lye,
We had a guy in high school who'd whistle the theme from "Lassie". The teacher would throw the wrong kid out then a couple minutes later the Lassie theme would start again. The teacher never figured out who it was.

------------billyjoe

[Lyehopper]

Ohhhhhhhhhhh.......

When I was in grade school I learned how to whistle (and make bird sounds) with my mouth almost completely closed.... Used to drive my teachers crazy.... Guess that's why Karel has a better command of the English language than I do.... Ssssssss!

[Rob]

“Death of Åse” by Edvard Grieg

That's all interesting stuff, Karel. Thanks. It was not my intention to assign you homework. I only asked thinking you might have already known the answer.

From those descriptions I have a pretty good idea about the way to pronounce the Å.

I'm assuming one would say the name with the accent on the first syllable and that the E at the end would be pronounced with a long A sound, as in "pay." I'm further assuming that the S in the middle of Åse would not be a hard S sound but more of a Z sound as in fez.

So in my mind it comes out sounding like AH-zay (not to be confused with AH-zay Osbourne or AH-zay Nelson).

Regardless of how the name is to be spoken, it's an unusually beautiful musical piece—one I would highly recommend everyone go out of their way to listen to. And there is no language barrier in music—well, instrumental music anyway.



Edit: I found a nicely done midi sequence of the song. It's not quite as good as hearing a real string section, but it's not bad.

[Karel]

Sorry, but I really like this! In case you are not affected by the cot-caught merger, the Å corresponds to the vowel sounds in caught, law, walk and small. That is, as long as you distinguish in pronunciation between caught and cot, as the link explains.

I'll promise to stop now!

Regards,

Karel

[Karel]

As far as I know, and could check, the Å is an O-sound. The typical O-sound however is made with a rather small mouth opening. The Å is what you get when you try to pronounce Oh with your mouth a bit wider open, more like for an Ah: a much flatter sound. On the web I have seen Å as oa in boat, but I don't think that is correct; the mouth is too much closed, and the sound is too "round", not "flat" enough.

In case this makes no sense (not unlikely), just treat Å like an Oh: Oh-se

Confirmation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_language#Vowels

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open-mid_back_rounded_vowel

The Open mid-back rounded vowels lie between o and a
in "vowel space"

Regards,

Karel

[Karel]

As far as I know, and could check, the Å is an O-sound. The typical O-sound however is made with a rather small mouth opening. The Å is what you get when you try to pronounce Oh with your mouth a bit wider open, more like for an Ah: a much flatter sound. On the web I have seen Å as oa in boat, but I don't think that is correct; the mouth is too much closed, and the sound is too "round", not "flat" enough.

In case this makes no sense (not unlikely), just treat Å like an Oh: Oh-se

Regards,

Karel

[Rob]

Edvard Grieg

Hey Karel,

You're a linguistic kind of guy, right? That's why I'm directing this question to you, though if anyone else knows the answer, feel free to chime in.

I was just listening to a hauntingly beautiful piece of music by Edvard Grieg called Death of Åse, from his Peer Gynt suite.

I know you're not Norwegian, but you're a lot closer to Norway than I am, and I'm often struck by the fact that your English usage is better than that of most for whom English is their native tongue. My question is: what is the correct pronunciation of “Åse” if you know? I'm curious. Thanks.

[Rob]

That's interesting. Wonder when bear skins were the fashion? Were Milan, Paris and London the centers of bear skin fashion?

I don't know, Jello, but it stands to reason that in the old days, when all woven fabrics were made by hand, bearskins would probably have been a less expensive way to keep warm.

The thing that interests me at the moment is that the text in the bullet points of my original post was not italicized in the quote portion of your reply.

[lemonjello]

Rob,

That's interesting. Wonder when bear skins were the fashion? Were Milan, Paris and London the centers of bear skin fashion?

I remember reading the beaver skins were in high demand at one point and John Jacob Astor was the Warren Buffet of beaver. Being in the middle of a beaver market wouldn't sound so bad.

“The precise origin of the phrases ‘bull market’ and ‘bear market’ is obscure. The most common etymology points to London bearskin ‘jobbers’ (brokers), who would sell bearskins before the bears had actually been caught in contradiction of the proverb ne vendez pas la peau de l'ours avant de l’avoir tué (‘don't sell the bearskin before you've killed the bear’)—an admonition against over-optimism. By the time of the South Sea Bubble of 1721, the bear was also associated with short selling; jobbers would sell bearskins they did not own in anticipation of falling prices, which would enable them to buy them later for an additional profit.

“Some analogies that have been drawn, but are likely false etymologies:

• It relates to the common use of these animals in bloodsport, i.e bear-baiting and bull-baiting.
• It refers to the way that the animals attack: a bull attacks with its horns from bottom up; a bear attacks with its paw from above, downward.
• It relates to the speed of the animals: bulls usually charge at very high speed whereas bears normally are lazy and cautious movers.
• They were originally used in reference to two old merchant banking families, the Barings and the Bulstrodes.
• Bears hibernate, while Bulls do not.
• Bears keep their chin up, while Bulls keep their chin down.
• Bear neck points down while Bull's points upwards.

“Another plausible origin is from the word ‘bulla’ which means bill, or contract. When a market is rising, holders of contracts for future delivery of a commodity see the value of their contract increase. In a falling market, the counterparties--the ‘bearers’ of the commmodity to be delivered, win because they have locked in a price higher than the present for future deivery.”—Wikipedia

What I have read: The bear shows its power when it strikes downward with its paws. The bull shows its power when it gores with an upward thrust.

[Rob]

“Bull” and “Bear” Markets

“The precise origin of the phrases ‘bull market’ and ‘bear market’ is obscure. The most common etymology points to London bearskin ‘jobbers’ (brokers), who would sell bearskins before the bears had actually been caught in contradiction of the proverb ne vendez pas la peau de l'ours avant de l’avoir tué (‘don't sell the bearskin before you've killed the bear’)—an admonition against over-optimism. By the time of the South Sea Bubble of 1721, the bear was also associated with short selling; jobbers would sell bearskins they did not own in anticipation of falling prices, which would enable them to buy them later for an additional profit.

“Some analogies that have been drawn, but are likely false etymologies:

• It relates to the common use of these animals in bloodsport, i.e bear-baiting and bull-baiting.
• It refers to the way that the animals attack: a bull attacks with its horns from bottom up; a bear attacks with its paw from above, downward.
• It relates to the speed of the animals: bulls usually charge at very high speed whereas bears normally are lazy and cautious movers.
• They were originally used in reference to two old merchant banking families, the Barings and the Bulstrodes.
• Bears hibernate, while Bulls do not.
• Bears keep their chin up, while Bulls keep their chin down.
• Bear neck points down while Bull's points upwards.

“Another plausible origin is from the word ‘bulla’ which means bill, or contract. When a market is rising, holders of contracts for future delivery of a commodity see the value of their contract increase. In a falling market, the counterparties--the ‘bearers’ of the commmodity to be delivered, win because they have locked in a price higher than the present for future deivery.”—Wikipedia

[Rob]

Stock Market/Stock

“stock market
“place where securities are bought and sold, 1809, from stock (n.2) + market. [The original ‘Stock Market’ (c.1350) was a fish and meat market in the City of London on or near the later site of Mansion House, so called perhaps because it occupied the site of a former stocks.]”—Online Etymology Dictionary

“stock (n.2)
“‘supply for future use’ (142, ‘sum of money’ (1463), M.E. developments of stock (n.1), but the ultimate sense connection is uncertain. Perhaps the notion is of the ‘trunk’ from which gains are an outgrowth, or obs. sense of ‘money-box’ (c.1400). Meaning ‘subscribed capital of a corporation’ is from 1612. Stock-broker is from 1706; stock exchange is from 1773. The verb meaning ‘to supply (a store) with stock’ is from 1622; in stock ‘in the possession of a trader’ is from 1618. Meaning ‘broth made by boiling meat or vegetables’ is from 1764. Theatrical use, in ref. to a company regularly acting together at a given theater, is attested from 1761. In ref. to conversation or literature, ‘recurring, commonplace’ (e.g. stock phrase), it is attested from 1738, on notion of ‘kept in store for constant use.’ Taking stock ‘making an inventory’ is attested from 1736. As the collective term for the movable property of a farm, it is recorded from 1519; hence livestock (1523).”—ibid.

[jiesen]

http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-sim1.htm

the word "simoleon" was in use in 1883...