When Saddam Hangs

[Rob]

That is why the Intelligent Design crew makes such a poor show at the moment.

Would you include Jesus Christ as a member of the "Intelligent Design Crew"? Or do you think he is an evolutionist?

[Karel]

Rob, you adressed me, perhaps out of a concern that I missed the points you mentioned. I can reassure you that I didn't, that I am quite up to date, and that in my estimation the results of science point quite different ways.

I don't buy the difference between "true" and other science: science is science and should be judged by its results, not by looking for agenda's. That is why the Intelligent Design crew makes such a poor show at the moment: yes, it has lots of agenda, but more importantly no science to show, and their greatest proponents know and some even admit this. So I'll just reaffirm my position and I appreciate that you gave yours.

Regards,

Karel

[mimo_100]

Karel,

I'm all for education and science, but these can be misapplied as well, through design to fit a particular world-view agenda, or through ignorance. Where non-agenda-driven education and true science are employed, they can yield enormous benefits. However, a Christian needs to exercise caution, as the apostle Paul admonished: “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”—Col. 2:8

When it comes to the biblical account of Adam and Eve's creation, it is apparent that Jesus recognized it as an historical event. Matthew 19:4 tells us: “And he [Jesus] answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female”.

I believe in special creation and that the evolution theory is man's attempt to usurp God's position as the supreme authority. All true scientific data support the teaching that life is the result of intelligent design. The notion that we are descended from apes or ape-like creatures is a conclusion in search of support. The fossil record indicates that life appeared quite suddenly and in many different forms, though agenda-driven (humanist) science and education try desperately to cloak that fact in voluminous double-talk.

I am a Christian. I believe Jesus is the Son of God, that he died and was raised to life on the third day. I believe the Bible when it says that he (as well as some of his disciples) raised people from the dead and that the day will come when “all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” (John 5:28, 29) I believe God inspired men to write the Bible and that he has preserved it for the benefit of those living in “the time of the end,” as Daniel 12:4 indicates.

To reiterate my main point though, I do not believe true science to be at odds with the Genesis creation account. (And I do not believe the term “day” used in that history referred to literal 24-hour time periods either. If it were so, the earth would only be a little more than 6,000 years old, and that's just ridiculous.) While scientific “knowledge” is in a constant state of flux though, the truth of God's word is unchanged. At John 17:17 Jesus said to his father, “Thy word is truth,” and I believe it to be so.

AMEN! Well put Rob. I have experienced the power of God "to move mountains" in my life. Once a person understands that with God all things are possible, everything else just falls into place.

[Rob]

Well, some of the problems are due to translations, perhaps, but Biblical scholarship isn't really worth the name if it doesn't use the original texts in the original languages.

Karel,

I'm all for education and science, but these can be misapplied as well, through design to fit a particular world-view agenda, or through ignorance. Where non-agenda-driven education and true science are employed, they can yield enormous benefits. However, a Christian needs to exercise caution, as the apostle Paul admonished: “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”—Col. 2:8

When it comes to the biblical account of Adam and Eve's creation, it is apparent that Jesus recognized it as an historical event. Matthew 19:4 tells us: “And he [Jesus] answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female”.

I believe in special creation and that the evolution theory is man's attempt to usurp God's position as the supreme authority. All true scientific data support the teaching that life is the result of intelligent design. The notion that we are descended from apes or ape-like creatures is a conclusion in search of support. The fossil record indicates that life appeared quite suddenly and in many different forms, though agenda-driven (humanist) science and education try desperately to cloak that fact in voluminous double-talk.

I am a Christian. I believe Jesus is the Son of God, that he died and was raised to life on the third day. I believe the Bible when it says that he (as well as some of his disciples) raised people from the dead and that the day will come when “all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” (John 5:28, 29) I believe God inspired men to write the Bible and that he has preserved it for the benefit of those living in “the time of the end,” as Daniel 12:4 indicates.

To reiterate my main point though, I do not believe true science to be at odds with the Genesis creation account. (And I do not believe the term “day” used in that history referred to literal 24-hour time periods either. If it were so, the earth would only be a little more than 6,000 years old, and that's just ridiculous.) While scientific “knowledge” is in a constant state of flux though, the truth of God's word is unchanged. At John 17:17 Jesus said to his father, “Thy word is truth,” and I believe it to be so.

[Karel]

Actually the universe isn't exactly running down. All of the energy is heading towards a state of equilibrium, which means once all energy has equalized, it will no longer transfer and everything will cease to move.

Pretty cool I think.

Truly! Only minimally above 0 degrees Kelvin.

Regards,

Karel

[Rob]

All of the energy is heading towards a state of equilibrium, which means once all energy has equalized, it will no longer transfer and everything will cease to move.

Where will the DJIA be when that happens?

[mrmarket]

Karel,
I don't think you need to be sorry. Yes, if by Fundamentalist Christian you mean a Bible-believer, you are very correct. I don't think the position is untenable; I think it is bullet-proof.

Example: the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics states that all things are running down. Your house, your car, everything is subject to decay. This is a law of the universe. So then how can evolution be true? I would think that evolution is the untenable position.

God bless you, Karel

Actually the universe isn't exactly running down. All of the energy is heading towards a state of equilibrium, which means once all energy has equalized, it will no longer transfer and everything will cease to move.

Pretty cool I think.

[riverbabe]

Would you agree that some of the problems are not so much with scripture in it's original form but with various translations into other languages. For example: The KJV, that most people around here use, is considered to be handed down directly from God himself. They seem to think that God "spake" to the Bible writers in "Ye Olde English"....

Reminds me of that great bumper sticker that goes something like this:
"The King James Bible was good enough for St. Paul, so it's good enough for me!"

[Karel]

Would you agree that some of the problems are not so much with scripture in it's original form but with various translations into other languages. For example: The KJV, that most people around here use, is considered to be handed down directly from God himself. They seem to think that God "spake" to the Bible writers in "Ye Olde English"....

I have a question for NBB and Karel.... Do you believe that God created the Universe (Heaven and Earth) literally in seven 24 hour days?

Well, some of the problems are due to translations, perhaps, but Biblical scholarship isn't really worth the name if it doesn't use the original texts in the original languages. And I want to answer your question about creation, but preferably only for the record, and not to start a possibly endless discussion. (Completely off-topic in this thread too, but the thread was bound to get moderately off-topic anyway.)

No, I don't believe in a creation in seven days of 24 hours. To do so would, in my eyes and those of a lot of scholars, miss quite few very important points in the creation hymn (Gen 1:1-2:4). Also, from a scientific viewpoint the age of the universe and earth are pretty well established, as is the timescale of the development of life on earth. They are not in accordance with a seven day creation. Where former ages through lack of knowledge could still view the Creation hymn as "historical" (a word much less rigorously defined then as now), we are now free to concentrate on its other meanings.

I think this puts me fairly and squarely in what NBB considers to be slanderers of God's word, but it is my considered opinion, and it should be obvious that I consider my own position in a somewhat better light.

Regards,

Karel

[Lyehopper]

I have a degree in theology. My theological studies forced me to clarify my own position with regard to the Bible. In this situation the Biblical Inerrantists got my attention. I developed some sympathy for their notions, but not much more than that.

Would you agree that some of the problems are not so much with scripture in it's original form but with various translations into other languages. For example: The KJV, that most people around here use, is considered to be handed down directly from God himself. They seem to think that God "spake" to the Bible writers in "Ye Olde English"....

I have a question for NBB and Karel.... Do you believe that God created the Universe (Heaven and Earth) literally in seven 24 hour days?

[Karel]

Yes, I do know better, but I wasn't sure you did. I am impressed that you do know the nuances. Tell me, in the Netherlands, do you know any fundamentalists? And where did you become so acquainted with fundamentalists that you can identify the typical ones?

Well, I can only claim to know some nuances, not everything in the article I referred to. I don't know of any strictly fundamentalist groups in the Netherlands, but that is not saying much. More prominent in our country are the Evangelicals, who have a large overlap with Fundamentalists and some (or groups) of whom may have more typically Fundamentalist notions.

I became acquainted with Fundamentalism because I am interested in the reactions to modernism, both in my own church (as anti-modernism) and in Protestantism. My interest arose because I am very much interested in both science and religion. Indeed, I have a degree in theology. My theological studies forced me to clarify my own position with regard to the Bible. In this situation the Biblical Inerrantists got my attention. I developed some sympathy for their notions, but not much more than that. It was also the start for my interest in reactions to modernism.

I am sorry I misstated the 2nd Law. I have been misinformed. No, I am not a scientist, but I am aware that evolution has not been proven, and that the Bible has no contradictions in it.

Thank you for your acknowledgment. From my (lay) study of the earth sciences and biology I am convinced things are a bit different, but let's leave it at that. But from this angle I also encountered the Fundamentalists, when, looking for information about evolution, I stumbled upon the newsgroup talk.origins, a group with a lot of unnice people from both camps, but still informative.

Regards,

Karel

[Rob]

But you must admit that he has a cool first name.

His first name is John.

His real name is John Ellis Bush, and "Jeb" comes from his initials.

More worthless trivia—unless you happen to go on the Jeopardy TV show and that information is in one of the correct questions.

[IIC]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Websman
Jeb has left Tallahassee... I've been to his office on business and was not really impressed much by him.

And just what type of biz were you there for anyway???

Since when do ex-governors get personally escorted to their new abode by prison wardens???

[Lyehopper]

Jeb has left Tallahassee... I've been to his office on business and was not really impressed much by him.

But you must admit that he has a cool first name.

[New-born baby]

Actually, you should know better. Bible-believer is not the meaning of fundamentalist, although it is true that fundamentalists generally consider themselves to be the only Bible-believers, a rather unfunny practice. You could try this for the meaning of fundamentalist, the way I used the word.

Yes, I do know better, but I wasn't sure you did. I am impressed that you do know the nuances. Tell me, in the Netherlands, do you know any fundamentalists? And where did you become so acquainted with fundamentalists that you can identify the typical ones?

This is indeed strange, that you start out with this easily refutable strawman argument. You misstate the 2nd law. The impossibility of the law as you state it is easy to see: all around us, we see natural processes going in both directions: water freezes and ice thaws, clouds condense and evaporize. One of those directions always is towards more order, the other towards less. In your formulation, one half of those two pairs of processes would be impossible. Trust scientists to formulate better laws than that. And of course I didn't need to go into this kind of detail, for who would take a "natural law" seriously that uses colloquial expressions like "running down"?

Regards,

Karel

I am sorry I misstated the 2nd Law. I have been misinformed. No, I am not a scientist, but I am aware that evolution has not been proven, and that the Bible has no contradictions in it.