OT: Health care reform

[riverbabe]

Health care- small business

yours is a pragmatic and logical mind river. i always respect your opinions. the thing is that this bill is going to overwhelm small businesses with the charges they are going to place on them with these health insurance mandates.

Ski, just found this: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...atestheadlines

How many is the biggest number of employees you have or expect to have?
I thought I read somewhere a week or so ago that employees of small businesses that opt out of providing healthcare can fall back on a government credit. Need to search that one.

[riverbabe]

toxo

You must be a writer! What a colorful, imaginative, fascinating piece! A joy to read, for the imagery along with the content. Thank you.

[riverbabe]

Maybe because...

I'd like to know why this is in the new plan???...Doug

Tax on Indoor Tanning Services
The act imposes a 10% tax on amounts paid for indoor tanning services (new IRC § 5000B). Like a sales tax, the tax will be collected from the person tanning when payment for the tanning services is made. The provision applies to services performed on or after July 1, 2010.

It sounds like a "sin tax." Maybe because any UV is considered bad for us?

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs287/en/index.html

[riverbabe]

Pete and everybody

Thanx for your input, basically there are no easy answers , and I have tried to supply some ideas I would "RAM THROUGH" if I were president! LOL
Now,shall we comment on plans to end the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars?

Good for you! At least you're thinking up possible solutions, instead of dwelling on the problems.

I'm so proud of us all on this forum We are constructive intelligent people even though we have some disagreements. It is a great pleasure and privilege to know you all.

[skiracer]

Good for you! At least you're thinking up possible solutions, instead of dwelling on the problems.

I'm so proud of us all on this forum We are constructive intelligent people even though we have some disagreements. It is a great pleasure and privilege to know you all.

intimately!

[toxo]

Intimately?

Waitttt a minute! What've I missed?:^(

[riverbabe]

toxo

Ah, now I sees...

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/488/archery.jpg

[steelman]

I'm so proud of us all on this forum We are constructive intelligent people even though we have some disagreements. It is a great pleasure and privilege to know you all.

I couldn't agree more. We need to talk to Ernie and find out when the first annual $$$Mr. Market is Huge$$$ Gala is going to be and where. It would be great to meet everyone and share some spirits and laughs some day

My best to everyone here
Cheers,
Steelman

[mrmarket]

I couldn't agree more. We need to talk to Ernie and find out when the first annual $$$Mr. Market is Huge$$$ Gala is going to be and where. It would be great to meet everyone and share some spirits and laughs some day

My best to everyone here
Cheers,
Steelman

Don't know when, but I promise it will be in Atlantic City.

[Peter Hansen]

Steel Yes

I couldn't agree more. We need to talk to Ernie and find out when the first annual $$$Mr. Market is Huge$$$ Gala is going to be and where. It would be great to meet everyone and share some spirits and laughs some day

My best to everyone here
Cheers,
Steelman

Steel yes great group of people ......Too bad so many of us are so geographically diverse ....a central meeting place would be difficult, but perhaps a few l get togethers at several locations!

[Peter Hansen]

Archery Jokes

Aha River babe triggered a sport and archery joke .

Handsome Archer
Q: What did the lustful maiden say to the handsome archer? A" "You make me quiver."

Ya gotta like this one , Gee I wonder what River's thoughts are on Archery and Rifle shooting?




Radio Interview


Note: This is an exact transcript of National Public Radio (NPR) interview between a female broadcaster, and US Army General Reinwald who was about to sponsor a Boy Scout Troop visiting his military installation.

FEMALE INTERVIEWER: "So, General Reinwald, what things are you going to teach these young boys when they visit your base?"
GENERAL REINWALD: "We're going to teach them climbing, canoeing, archery, and shooting."
FEMALE INTERVIEWER: "Shooting! That's a bit irresponsible, isn't it?"
GENERAL REINWALD: "I don't see why, they'll be properly supervised on the rifle range."
FEMALE INTERVIEWER: "Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous activity to be teaching children?"
GENERAL REINWALD: "I don't see how, "We will be teaching them proper rifle discipline before they even touch a firearm."
FEMALE INTERVIEWER: "But you're equipping them to become violent killers."
GENERAL REINWALD: "Well, you're equipped to be a prostitute, but you're not one, are you?"
The radio went silent and the interview ended.

[peanuts]

Karel,

You ask us to "quantify" our reasons... Perhaps you meant to do it, but my guess is that you did not realize that this would ultimately limit our responses. I do not doubt that counting usually offers a solid solution. But, we should not discount the solution that is based upon an opinion that attempts to "qualify" a solution.

There are examples on both sides of the debate which are based on a belief system rather than on simple fact. I.e. A futurist may think that change is an essential means to bring a certain perceptible end. Others may feel that the system on which the American government was based against is now infiltrating the daily lives of the average person. Both sides feel strongly of their beliefs, but neither can acutely quantify their perceptions or even their solution to the problems based on the violation of their beliefs. They simply just feel or believe that their thoughts will lead to, or at least perceive, a better way of life.

Just because something can be more easily counted does not necessarily make it the best choice to implement. The sake of basic math does not override human beliefs.

My personal views are that the purest market is one in which there are the maximum number of players. Accuracy of supply and demand figures, as well as the reliability of averages, increases with the percentage of responses of the market players. In other words, accuracy of quantifiable conclusions improves with participation.

We can argue our heads off and get nowhere because we are a very small percent of the population, or we can just say that our opinions will keep us from finding a perfect solution. In the end, everything comes down to a compromise. And in this case, we should NOW rather be thinking of the compromises that can be done rather than completely shutting down our minds to alternatives. Bipartisan government is obviously not possible at the moment, but the simple fact of the majority opinion needs to be addressed in the process given to us.

Is there some way to simply count the populous of America? I doubt that more than 50% actually know what the details of how this bill will affect all of our futures.

I am a healthy 31 year old male. According to this bill, I will be compulsorily contributing to EVERYONE'S healthcare, whether they are smokers, alcohol abusers, drug users, or simple law abiding citizens, like me... now who is this benefiting, and who is this hurting? Which party is better off? Should I take up the bottle and begin buying by the carton? And what about the caregivers? If they are not getting paid better for better services, then who is going to strive for the best? Why spend the extra time and energy to be #1 when #100 gets the same pay? Why do research to improve procedures and medications when you never reap the rewards of your efforts?

[IIC]

First of all we already had a convention...Unfortunately Ernie was the only one who remembered.

If health care reform is so great for the avg. and poor...How come we see this?

http://bit.ly/cPwcLn

I posed the question to Jason Pollock who wants to be the White House tweeter...he'll never be able to answer and that's one reason he won't win the job...I was asked to support him...But I'd prefer someone who actually has a clue to what is going on whether I like them or not...Doug

[Karel]

Right now the biggest problem with our healthcare system is cost control. The costs and services were supposed to be optimalized by supply and demand, but right now the quality of service seems to be dropping and the prices are certainly rising. Perhaps the market is not a good model for healthcare, but that should become a subject of research before any conclusions can be drawn.

Karel,
I have always respected your analytically precise logic and honesty. i had a bit of a chuckle with the above statement because it is so honest and relevant as to what is going to be happening with healthcare here in the US now that this bill has passed. how long do you go before you pass judgement on a bad situation. when you step in poop do you have to walk around with it on your shoe for a couple for a couple off weeks before you scrape it off just to make sure it was poop.

When I read my quote, I seem to say that the move (from a price restricted system) to a market controlled system coincided with a rise in costs and less perceived service. As the US have no health care cost restrictions either, and assuming the coincidence a meaningful connection (my stated impression in the quote), I would expect cost to have gone out of hand already for the US. Which certainly is the case. It is too early to fix the blame on market mechanisms, but it is at least a good idea to consider if the market may be inefficient or worse in controlling health care costs.

Regards,

Karel

[Karel]

Karel,

You ask us to "quantify" our reasons... Perhaps you meant to do it, but my guess is that you did not realize that this would ultimately limit our responses. I do not doubt that counting usually offers a solid solution. But, we should not discount the solution that is based upon an opinion that attempts to "qualify" a solution. [...]

If you want to give a good qualitative argument, feel free. If you want to give an argument from principles, you have my attention. I don't have much of an opinion about the new act myself, because the US situation is so much different from that in the Netherlands. The act has my sympathy in that it aims for universal healthcare, which is a Good Thing in my books. (That is an argument from principles!) But conforming (or attempting to conform) to a Good Thing does not absolve this act from rational scrutiny.

[...] I am a healthy 31 year old male. According to this bill, I will be compulsorily contributing to EVERYONE'S healthcare, whether they are smokers, alcohol abusers, drug users, or simple law abiding citizens, like me... now who is this benefiting, and who is this hurting? Which party is better off? Should I take up the bottle and begin buying by the carton? And what about the caregivers? If they are not getting paid better for better services, then who is going to strive for the best? Why spend the extra time and energy to be #1 when #100 gets the same pay? Why do research to improve procedures and medications when you never reap the rewards of your efforts?

It would be good to consider the arguments you use here. Cutting away the emotion, there are two arguments:

• Shouldn't there be a premium for a healthy lifestyle? Well, that is something to consider. Or extra costs for people who expose themselves to higher risks. But one of the problems with this is where to draw the line. There is a clear indication that I have a congenital cancer risk. Is it OK to let me pay more? Perhaps not, as you could say it is just bad luck. What about obesitas? There is no doubt that people could do something about it, but there is equally no doubt that in most cases that is a very hard thing to do and it might be influenced by genetical disposition and outside influences. And for most drug, alcohol and nicotine abusers (users would not be a problem) things might be the same. Is it really a good idea to deny people access to healthcare because of habits that might be no longer under their control? And how much exactly is that going to cost you?
  
  And don't forget: this act was not to get all those alcoholists and junkies on board, but all those people for whom healthcare had become inaccessible because of existing conditions.
  
  And suggesting that you should become an alcoholist the better to profit from healthcare benefits is just playing to a (rather stupid) public.
  
• Fixed prices eliminate competition. This need not be the case. In a fixed price scheme, there could be provisons to penalize underperforming caregivers and reward outperforming ones. But within limits. (There is an interesting problem with this: the best doctors tend to get more of the problematical patients, so they might very well underperform. This not unsolvable, however.)

Well, what I mean is: no plan is so good that it can't be improved. But then have a plan for improvement. The previous situation was a disgrace.

Regards,

Karel