Rob's Lobs

[Rob]

Boortz Article—Good Read

Attached is a text file. It contains the text of a column by radio talk show host Neal Boortz and deals with the subject of the VA Tech shooting and gun control. It's rather lengthy but a very good read. If you have a little time, read it. This guy makes a lot of sense to me.

[riverbabe]

I agree Babe...its not even remotely nice to say that any of those poor kids in those class rooms had any reason to react other than the way they did, and suggest that if they were armed they might have someone stopped the killer is ludicrous. It takes a special person to react to a violent assault like that. I've read that many soldiers in world war 2 could not bring themselves to fire a weapon and kill another person. They would do other things to help the cause, ie lug ammo or wounded or whatever, but even though they were trained in combat they just could not find it in themselves to kill anyone. But they were there in right in the middle of the battle doing what they could to help out. They weren't cowards, they just couldn't kill another human. I'd be curious to know if Ski saw that happen in Nam.

I totally agree. River

Okay, it appears I am in the middle of the OK Corral confrontation. But I feel I have to say the following:

1. We are dealing with actual and potential victims of a killer.
2. We are dealing with college kids that are between the ages of 18 and 21 or more, like your kids and grandkids.
3. These kids have been taught for their total school lives the art of self-preservation; that is, dive under your desk when you feel a tremor, a threat of a tornado, fall-out from a mushroom cloud. Lie on the floor and play dead.
4. The first kids killed in the shooting were in the first two rows of the auditorium. They had no chance.
5 To say that 15-20 other kids might have overpowed the assailant is assinine, becuse there was NO TIME or possible coordination to formulate such a response, whether concealed guns or no guns. It happened too fast.
6. The LET'S ROLL people on the United Airlines jet had the advantage of TIME to formulate a plan.
7. I live alone. I do not have a gun. I believe that if I have a gun I am more likely to be shot by my assailant.
8. I can survive a rape by my own physical assault on the assailant; I cannot survive a deadly shooting. I accept that.
9. I used my foot to disarm my first husband from trying to rape me during our divorce, and saw the very positive results, with him writhing on the floor.
10. I can defend myself better without a gun than with a gun.

I agree Babe...its not even remotely nice to say that any of those poor kids in those class rooms had any reason to react other than the way they did, and suggest that if they were armed they might have someone stopped the killer is ludicrous. It takes a special person to react to a violent assault like that. I've read that many soldiers in world war 2 could not bring themselves to fire a weapon and kill another person. They would do other things to help the cause, ie lug ammo or wounded or whatever, but even though they were trained in combat they just could not find it in themselves to kill anyone. But they were there in right in the middle of the battle doing what they could to help out. They weren't cowards, they just couldn't kill another human. I'd be curious to know if Ski saw that happen in Nam.

[riverbabe]

Okay, it appears I am in the middle of the OK Corral confrontation. But I feel I have to say the following:

1. We are dealing with actual and potential victims of a killer.
2. We are dealing with college kids that are between the ages of 18 and 21 or more, like your kids and grandkids.
3. These kids have been taught for their total school lives the art of self-preservation; that is, dive under your desk when you feel a tremor, a threat of a tornado, fall-out from a mushroom cloud. Lie on the floor and play dead.
4. The first kids killed in the shooting were in the first two rows of the auditorium. They had no chance.
5 To say that 15-20 other kids might have overpowed the assailant is assinine, becuse there was NO TIME or possible coordination to formulate such a response, whether concealed guns or no guns. It happened too fast.
6. The LET'S ROLL people on the United Airlines jet had the advantage of TIME to formulate a plan.
7. I live alone. I do not have a gun. I believe that if I have a gun I am more likely to be shot by my assailant.
8. I can survive a rape by my own physical assault on the assailant; I cannot survive a deadly shooting. I accept that.
9. I used my foot to disarm my first husband from trying to rape me during our divorce, and saw the very positive results, with him writhing on the floor.
10. I can defend myself better without a gun than with a gun.

Come on, Lye, a gun is a WEAPON. When a gun malfunctions, because its operation is designed to be LETHAL, it is even more dangerous than, cough, a tractor to passersby. Let's get real.

There's even a story today about a gun handling accident involving the U.S. Secret Service stationed at the White House. Why is handling a handgun so accident-prone?

But hey, we have a "free market" in health care and in firearms in this country, but neither works very well for the masses.

"US gun laws draw heat after latest shooting"

http://tinyurl.com/2k2pvs

Regardless of veteran or law enforcement status, Park's and Tatnic's "friends" were NOT being careful. I could elaborate but it's a futile argument here.

"Buggy equipment".... You can get killed by owning and operating a badly designed or poorly maintained forklift or tractor.... When researching any equipment, it pays to become educated about the product and purchase the best quality and technology and learn to maintain it properly. Might I suggest the following manufacturers.

http://www.kimberamerica.com/kpd/

http://www.paraord.com/product/category.html?cat=13

And if an autoloader seems a bit too complex? Might I also suggest the following simple high quality revolvers for the ladies.... or the mechanically challenged.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=14766&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15704&isFirearm=Y

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=14752&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15704&isFirearm=Y

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firear...in%20Stainless

true enough Lye...there are around 100 people killed every day in the us in automobile accidents. I can count on one hand the number of people I've known personally that were killed by firearms, but I can't begin to count the number I've known or known about through friends that were killed in automobile accidents.

[mrmarket]

You did not answer my question Tatnic. Paranoid or not, let's try this again.

Do you think the law should make it legal for a citizen to carry a concealed handgun if they meet certain qualifications?

Do you think it should be illegal for any citizen to carry a concealed handgun?

Lye...I think you are an excellent guy and you should have as many guns as you want. I wan you to carry them as often as you like and to almost anywhere you want. To be honest, I wouldn't want you to bring it into my house, however.

I don't like the idea, but if any citizen wants to carry a concealed gun, they have the right to do so, in my opinion. There should be very strict background checks and permitting procedures. If someone really loves guns, this paperwork and review shouldn't be a problem for them.

[peanuts]

There's no law against anyone in this country (maybe I should say US citizen) from bearing arms....I can take my fully loaded rifle for a stroll down any main street (in full view) in any state in this country and be in full compliance with the law....that's protected under the constitution. I might get arrested for hunting without a license or for some local law, but its protected under the constitution and therefor legal.

I was once driving through the Breezewood interchange off of the Pennsylvania Turnpike a few years back, heading towards DC. After I paid my toll and entered the drive-thru town of Breezewood, I noticed a guy in camo off to the side of the road. He looked like one of those guys in the movies from the 70's and 80's that just got back from Nam and continued to wonder around the country, sort of like Rambo. Anyway, this guy had a gun, or what looked to be an excellent replica of a gun, held across his chest while he marched a one man parade down the middle of the street (yes, he moved from the side of the road into the middle of it). At first sight, he was pretty calm, but I watched him for about as long as I could, and I could see the guy was suffering from some kind of mental anguish. He was talking to himself, maybe arguing (who knows?), but it was quite apparant that the gun shouldn't have been in his hands.

Not sure if you could ever stop something like that from continually happening sporadically. Not sure if anything bad happened. Not sure how this relates to Rob's Lobs, but I felt like sharing, nonetheless.

You did not answer my question Tatnic. Paranoid or not, let's try this again.

Do you think the law should make it legal for a citizen to carry a concealed handgun if they meet certain qualifications?

Yes, I never said otherwise. Its not the legal, law abiding citizens that are the problem and its already legal to carry concealed weapons in your own state with an easily obtained permit. Last time I got one it was as simple as filling out a form, but I'm guessing that's not the case any more.

Do you think it should be illegal for any citizen to carry a concealed handgun?

Yes when you pose the question like that....most citizens are not qualified to carry a concealed weapon much less a concealed handgun. Everyone should be subjected to very strict and thorough investigations before they are allowed to carry a concealed handgun....this means background checks and psychological tests. (I for one would want to make sure they weren't bed wetters, cruel to animals, or budding arsonists as youths).

There's no law against anyone in this country (maybe I should say US citizen) from bearing arms....I can take my fully loaded rifle for a stroll down any main street (in full view) in any state in this country and be in full compliance with the law....that's protected under the constitution. I might get arrested for hunting without a license or for some local law, but its protected under the constitution and therefor legal.

[IIC]

Didn't you see the crime spike during the Depression that are shown on the (FBI?) charts you posted?

Also, as you know the U.S. Census data aren't the be-all and end-all of demographic, but it might be the best we have in the aggregate. P.S. How effectively does the Census capture demographic data about underprivileged neighborhoods in U.S. major cities?

Well...I don't have time to take my own census.

I noticed the depression years but I was simply responding to your comparison between the crime rate now vs. the 60's. Your argument about demographics doesn't really cut it...Doug

Summary of gun laws in Virginia

Looks to me that the gun lovers (or should I say the gun shop lobbyists ) have it their way in Virginia.

http://www.stategunlaws.org/viewstate.php?choose_state=Go&st=VA

[Lyehopper]

So where do you stand Mr. 300 win mag?

You hit the nail on the head Ernie...you feel perfectly safe without a handgun. Most handgun owners I know, especially those who carry them all the time with a concealed weapons permit, feel paranoid and are afraid to leave their houses without their "protection". Now, who is more afraid and feels unsafe? Obviously its the paranoid guy with the handgun hidden under his coat. And would you want to be around someone like that when loud noise goes off...a truck backfiring, Lye farting, whatever, that guy will pull out his protection and squeeze off a few before he realizes what he's done.

You did not answer my question Tatnic. Paranoid or not, let's try this again.

Do you think the law should make it legal for a citizen to carry a concealed handgun if they meet certain qualifications?

Do you think it should be illegal for any citizen to carry a concealed handgun?

The % of people below the poverty line is lower than it was in the early 60's...at least as of a few years ago:

http://www.census.gov/income/histpov/hstpov2.lst

Didn't you see the crime spike during the Depression that are shown on the (FBI?) charts you posted?

Also, as you know the U.S. Census data aren't the be-all and end-all of demographic, but it might be the best we have in the aggregate. P.S. How effectively does the Census capture demographic data about underprivileged neighborhoods in U.S. major cities?

Here is an interesting local article (Norfolk, Va.) from 1996 that shows some the tactics for those pro and con the regulation of local handgun sales. Notice that the local police chief wants handgun regulation that goes beyond the state's level. (I'm trying to determine at the Va. Tech Univ. web site what their policy is about having handguns on campus.)

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/VA-Pilot/issues/1996/vp961106/11060362.htm

//
At the prodding of the gun dealers lobby, Councilman W. Randy Wright asked the council Tuesday to end the city's $15 surcharge on handgun purchases.

The fee pays for a criminal background check by police that is more thorough than the state's.

``Whether we like handguns or not, it's a legal business that is being driven out of our city by the fees we tack on,'' Wright said.

Norfolk Police Chief Melvin C. High spoke against removing the fee. He said it enables the city to catch criminals who buy guns that the state computerized instant-record check does not catch.

He did not give figures but said in an interview later that the city process can help prevent sales to those with mental problems and people who have a pattern of buying guns illegally.

``I don't think lessening regulations benefits anyone other than the gun dealers,'' High said.

Only Councilman Herbert M. Collins joined Wright in favoring the repeal.

At issue, said City Manager James B. Oliver, was whether the council wanted to change its policy of trying to create an anti-gun climate in the community.

Oliver reminded the council that some years ago it had decided to prohibit the annual gun show at the Scope arena as well as other gun-related events on city property.

Mayor Paul D. Fraim said the city's policy is sound.

``That we have some of the strongest restrictions on handgun purchases should be seen as a plus,'' Fraim said. Past councils have acted because ``we have believed that there are too many handguns, and they damage too many lives.''

But Wright, reading from a report he said was supplied by a gun dealers association that opposes the fee, said Hampton made almost half the gun sales in the region because it has unregulated gun sales. Yet Hampton's crime rate was lower than in some localities with tighter purchase requirements, Wright said.

In response, High noted that the crime rate in Norfolk has declined over the past few years, partially because of the extra fee and background checks on handgun sales.

In a memo supplied to the council, High said easing the sales of handguns would not support the city's community policing program.

``Regulating the sale of handguns is a part of the overall effort to reduce crime, violence and fear,'' High said in the memo.

Wright said the city is hassling a legal business. He and Collins also said they would favor reopening Scope to gun shows.
//

[IIC]

Demographics and poverty are the drivers.

The % of people below the poverty line is lower than it was in the early 60's...at least as of a few years ago:

http://www.census.gov/income/histpov/hstpov2.lst