When Saddam Hangs

[Karel]

Rob, you adressed me, perhaps out of a concern that I missed the points you mentioned. I can reassure you that I didn't, that I am quite up to date, and that in my estimation the results of science point quite different ways.

I don't buy the difference between "true" and other science: science is science and should be judged by its results, not by looking for agenda's. That is why the Intelligent Design crew makes such a poor show at the moment: yes, it has lots of agenda, but more importantly no science to show, and their greatest proponents know and some even admit this. So I'll just reaffirm my position and I appreciate that you gave yours.

Regards,

Karel

[Rob]

That is why the Intelligent Design crew makes such a poor show at the moment.

Would you include Jesus Christ as a member of the "Intelligent Design Crew"? Or do you think he is an evolutionist?

[Websman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Websman
Jeb has left Tallahassee... I've been to his office on business and was not really impressed much by him.

And just what type of biz were you there for anyway???

Since when do ex-governors get personally escorted to their new abode by prison wardens???

I'm not at liberty to discuss the details with you. It's classified.

[Karel]

Would you include Jesus Christ as a member of the "Intelligent Design Crew"? Or do you think he is an evolutionist?

No, and No. And what a silly question.

Regards,

Karel

[skiracer]

Would you include Jesus Christ as a member of the "Intelligent Design Crew"? Or do you think he is an evolutionist?

I'm a believer in both Jesus and God. I have my doubts about all the separate interpretations of the scriptures. I'm not sure what you mean by this last statement Rob. I think it would be interesting to hear your explanation. I am by no means an authority with the written word in the Bible but my brother-in-law and sister are both ministers and have a large congretation of Baptist orientated Born Again Christians. I speak to him at length about specific interpretations and I see that he is set in his absolute faith in the Bible and the written word in the Bible as long as it agrees with his interpretation. His faith is unquestionable but tunnelled by the law as handed down by his superiors.
I was born a Catholic but have accepted Jesus as my savior and the Lord as my father and consider myself a Born Again Christian but still go to Catholic mass every Sunday. I like the ritural and the communion. Still I have trouble with alot of the written word. I have no problem with living an honest Christian orientated lifestyle but I leave the interpretation and the meaning up to myself. The same with Catholicism. I don't feel that God or Jesus has any problem with me and how I feel about things. Rob, I really would like to hear your explanation of what you meant by your post.

[Websman]

This is getting dangerous...jejeje

[skiracer]

This is getting dangerous...jejeje

Well Webs not on my part. I have enjoyed the commentary so far an am just interested in an explanation of what Rob meant. By no means am I interested in or looking for a debate or an arguement. The discussion has come this far so let's let it evolve in a mannerly fashion with each of us respecting the others views as gentleman. If anyone of us makes a statement they should be able to present their side and listen to opposing views an ideas without starting an arguement.
I was born and raised a Catholic but have close ties to the Born Again concepts. There are certain things about Catholicism that I have a problem with and don't accept but I remain a Catholic because of my upbringing and childhood. In my opinion, nothing except the 10 commandments are written in stone, and the rest has to be able to change with the evolving of man and the different denominations and their interpretations. The Catholic religion has evolved in many ways to suit and keep the church an it's members together an in the church. To me that is evidence enough to support my arguement. I see the same thing with other denominations. The need to keep the faithful in the order and church are paramount and have always been primary in effecting change. Making things easier to swallow makes it easier to keep the faithful in the church. They all do it but few profess to it.

[Runner]

Here is my 2cents. I think we are all born into sin and it is only the power of Jesus that we find a way into heaven by accepting him in our live as Lord and Savior. . I feel the path to heaven is narrow and few will find it. I think the Catholic denomination is being miss lead as when I was one we use to take our sins to a man while kneeling inside a box. He would tell me to say the Hail Mary 15 times and I would be forgiven. My Church I went to every Sunday in Chicago was huge. It had a bunch of real nice statues and stained glass and it felt empty to me. I became a Baptist in Iraq and it was there when my eyes were opened to the truth. A man told me I could be forgiven for my sins and that God wanted a personal relationship with me. He told me God new every hair on my head and new me when I was inside my mothers wound. This man asked me a question that stuck with me. He asked if I was to die today if I know with 100% certainty that I was going to heaven? I never gave his question any thought in the past but inside I new that I was not sure. He told me just being a good man was not enough. I asked this man what I needed to do and so he told we to confess that I was a sinner and that I accept the Lord into my heart as my savior. I did this and folks my life changed. I still fall short every day and my best is like filthy rags in the Lord’s eyes. His spirit has given me power when I was weak. He has changed my life. He answers all Prayers with YES/NO/ LATER. His book is called the BASIC INSTRUCTIONS BEFORE LEAVING EARTH or BIBLE. I believe every word written is 100% true..

I believe we have 2 powers on this earth and you are plugged into one or the other. You are either plugged into Satin or the Lord. I feel a war is being wagged right now in many homes across America. I feel a spiritual battle is taking place for your soul right now. I believe you can’t straddle the fence. You are plugged in and the question is what power are you plugged into. I can’t see electricity but I tell you what you violate the principles of electricity and that very same power you can not see that heats your homes and runs your stove will kill you. I now see the truth and it is the truth that shall set you free. I feel this Country wants to kick God out of everything and allow Satin in.

Man or fools will always try to prove how God is a happen stance and that he does not exist.

[skiracer]

Here is my 2cents. I think we are all born into sin and it is only the power of Jesus that we find a way into heaven by accepting him in our live as Lord and Savior. . I feel the path to heaven is narrow and few will find it. I think the Catholic denomination is being miss lead as when I was one we use to take our sins to a man while kneeling inside a box. He would tell me to say the Hail Mary 15 times and I would be forgiven. My Church I went to every Sunday in Chicago was huge. It had a bunch of real nice statues and stained glass and it felt empty to me. I became a Baptist in Iraq and it was there when my eyes were opened to the truth. A man told me I could be forgiven for my sins and that God wanted a personal relationship with me. He told me God new every hair on my head and new me when I was inside my mothers wound. This man asked me a question that stuck with me. He asked if I was to die today if I know with 100% certainty that I was going to heaven? I never gave his question any thought in the past but inside I new that I was not sure. He told me just being a good man was not enough. I asked this man what I needed to do and so he told we to confess that I was a sinner and that I accept the Lord into my heart as my savior. I did this and folks my life changed. I still fall short every day and my best is like filthy rags in the Lord’s eyes. His spirit has given me power when I was weak. He has changed my life. He answers all Prayers with YES/NO/ LATER. His book is called the BASIC INSTRUCTIONS BEFORE LEAVING EARTH or BIBLE. I believe every word written is 100% true..

I believe we have 2 powers on this earth and you are plugged into one or the other. You are either plugged into Satin or the Lord. I feel a war is being wagged right now in many homes across America. I feel a spiritual battle is taking place for your soul right now. I believe you can’t straddle the fence. You are plugged in and the question is what power are you plugged into. I can’t see electricity but I tell you what you violate the principles of electricity and that very same power you can not see that heats your homes and runs your stove will kill you. I now see the truth and it is the truth that shall set you free. I feel this Country wants to kick God out of everything and allow Satin in.

Man or fools will always try to prove how God is a happen stance and that he does not exist.

I don't feel that God or Jesus thinks any the less of any of us that accept them as our Lord and Savior in whatever fashion it is that we see them and living our lives according to the 10 commandments. Offhand I have to agree with Karel an his answers of no and no to Rob's post although I'm not sure why exactly. That's why I wanted to hear Rob's explanation. But we are definitely entering an area where each of us should exercise control of our beliefs and emotions and respect each others opinions. It's all good. We can disagree without alienating ourselves.
I can tell you this. Take another man's life or a hundred men's lives or commiting any type of terrible act or sin and the question arises about the effect it will have on your life after death. Having some degree of faith in clearing your conscience and your soul, if you really believe the doctrine of confession as a Catholic, can make the difference in your mental state and how you feel about yourself.

[Karel]

That is right, ski, we should try to respect each others opinions. That is the reason I am, in this discussion, extra careful to say: "in my opinion", et cetera. I am explaining how I think and feel, and respect the other persons right to think and feel differently, even if we happen to be in quite opposite camps.

I feel the need to retract my qualification "silly" and instead give an explanation. Suppose person A is a proponent of X, and B of Y, and both consider themselves Christian. The question is asked: "Would Jesus be a proponent of X, or of Y?" Estimate the probability that A en B claim Jesus for their respective positions.

Now when people try to live a Christian life, they will do their best to act and think in such a way that it would have the approval of Jesus. So I would say that that probability would be pretty high, wouldn't it? That makes the question rather redundant, in my eyes. The positions should be judged on their merits, not on their putative adherence by Jesus.

So the best answer to such a question is to turn it down.

Regards,

Karel

[Rob]

Rob, I really would like to hear your explanation of what you meant by your post.

Skiracer, really? I thought the intent was clear.

When I first read Karel's statement, “All Christians started as fundamentalists, until that position became untenable by more and more Bible study. Therefore the need for ‘Higher criticism’. Something like the fact that all earth science started with the Genesis account, and now only people in deep denial still do so with regard to science”—in post #90 in this thread—it caught my interest because of the phrase “higher criticism,” a philosphy or school of thought about which I’ve done some personal study.

In fact, here’s the text from a cause-and-effect paper I wrote for an English class in school years ago, which pretty well sums up my view of the effects of higher criticism:

Few people would disagree with the assertion that the Bible is the most influential book in history. Through nearly two millenniums since its completion, it has greatly influenced the lives of countless millions of people. Many men and women have risked their very lives for the sake of merely possessing a copy. The authority of some of the most powerful figures in history was sustained by the fact that those over whom they exercised dominion believed that the Bible was the Word of God. This authority enthroned and deposed kings; it launched conquests of nations and continents. Indeed, so comprehensive has been the influence of this book that it has guided the course of world events and woven the very fabric of human history. There was a period during which the Bible had nearly universal acceptance in western civilization as the written word of Yahweh himself. And while it is true that in recent decades some growing acceptance of the Bible has been seen in the eastern world and in remote, tribal regions of the globe, the well-informed observer must admit that, on the whole, acceptance of the Bible as divine authority has fallen dramatically from its former position. What may have motivated this massive shift in opinion?

Eighteenth century Germany became the cradle of a modern philosophy known as Rationalism, the theological doctrine that human reason, rather than divine revelation, establishes religious truth. By the end of that century, Rationalism had in turn spawned the closely related Higher Criticism, a field of study in which the Bible is reexamined and reinterpreted in the light of modern scientific thought. This new philosophy furnished a number of eager recipients weaponry with which to challenge, and ostensibly disprove, the prevalent and long-standing belief that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God. The flawed and specious nature of the higher critics’ arguments notwithstanding, many Protestant clergymen eventually supported these views. As a result, by 1897 it was reported that among twenty Protestant theological universities in Germany, not one faculty member could be found who still supported the traditional views on the writership of the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Bible, attributed to Moses) or the book of Isaiah. Thus many ecclesiastics, whose charge it was to champion the Bible, became themselves complicit in a secular movement to discredit it! “Beware,” warned the apostle Paul, “lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ” (Col. 2:. Too many failed to give heed.

By the early twentieth century, this new “free thinking” grew deeper roots as more people became enamored of the notion that they should cast off the moral and religious shackles in which their predecessors had so long been bound. And who could blame them? The scales of past ignorance having fallen from their eyes, they could then see clearly the great hypocrisy of the churches and their leaders, who were equally deserving of the scathing denunciations Jesus pronounced against the wayward spiritual shepherds of Israel in his day: “Ye serpents[! Y]e generation of vipers[!] . . . [U]pon you [will] come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth[!]” (Matt. 23:33, 35).

Wanting nothing to do any longer with the bloodstained, deceitful churches and their conniving, duplicitous rectors, the secular humanist proselyte concludes that the Bible must be to blame for their unholiness, because they all cite it as the basis for their creeds. Ah, but in so reasoning he falls prey to the critical, yet oh so convenient, non sequitur fallacy! If he would but read his Bible, he might come to understand that it roundly condemns the wrong acts and erroneous theologies of these institutions, exposing them for the shams that they are. But reading the Bible is so inconvenient, whines his subconscious mind, knowing, in the deep recesses of his heart, there are things in his own life that would not pass muster. Besides, he has learned from the higher critics that the Bible is just an outdated, religious book of human origin anyway, so why bother? By this process the imperfect man finds great difficulty in resisting a sophistic school of thought that raises him to the office of final arbiter between that which is morally right and wrong.

Firmly rooted, therefore, in the human inclination toward unfettered independence, and watered by the so-called “enlightened” disciplines of Rationalism and Higher Criticism, the precepts of Secular Humanism have over the past century gained widespread acceptance. Today these tenets form the nuclei of public school curricula. Thus an environment is cultivated in which an individual who wishes to study the Bible and apply its principles is viewed as unenlightened, to be pitied or even scorned.

As society—with the aid of populist religions—moves further away from the divine principles outlined in the Bible, the lines of demarcation between right and wrong, good and evil, become increasingly indistinct. Moral “gray areas” expand to encompass actions that until recently were almost universally considered shocking and shameful. Narcissism flourishes. Bible literacy declines, and the effect snowballs. The prophet Isaiah rings out the divine warning, “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!” (Isa. 5:20, 21). Whether or not to align oneself with any particular organized religion, each individual must decide; but as for one’s personal well-being, to paraphrase Theodore Roosevelt: ‘No one, educated or uneducated, can afford to be ignorant of the Bible.’

I considered it somewhat of a dichotomy that on the one hand Karel considers himself a Christian and on the other says things like higher criticism of the Bible is “needed” and that “the Intelligent Design crew makes such a poor show.” I think that Jesus Christ unquestionably believed and taught that all forms of life are the result of intelligent design, which is entirely incompatible with the modern “scientific” theory of evolution. So my question was really asking: How can one consider himself to be a Christian, one who conforms his life to Christ’s ways and teachings, when the belief system he personally embraces stands in opposition to that of Jesus Christ?

[skiracer]

Very interesting Rob. And thanks for the reply and clarification on what you meant. I'm not up on the "Intelligent Design Crew" or their line of thought but I do know something of the Evolutionist theory. I want to do some reading up on the Intelligent Design Crew line of thought.

[New-born baby]

Would you agree that some of the problems are not so much with scripture in it's original form but with various translations into other languages. For example: The KJV, that most people around here use, is considered to be handed down directly from God himself. They seem to think that God "spake" to the Bible writers in "Ye Olde English"....

I have a question for NBB and Karel.... Do you believe that God created the Universe (Heaven and Earth) literally in seven 24 hour days?

Hi, Lye. Thanks for the question.

First, I am not KJV only. God gave the Bible in the original Greek and Hebrew languages, not King James' English.

Yes, I do believe God made the earth in six literal, 24 hour days as Genesis account says, "it was morning and evening, the second day . . . the third day, etc."

[Lyehopper]

By the early twentieth century, this new “free thinking” grew deeper roots as more people became enamored of the notion that they should cast off the moral and religious shackles in which their predecessors had so long been bound. And who could blame them? The scales of past ignorance having fallen from their eyes, they could then see clearly the great hypocrisy of the churches and their leaders, who were equally deserving of the scathing denunciations Jesus pronounced against the wayward spiritual shepherds of Israel in his day: “Ye serpents[! Y]e generation of vipers[!] . . . [u]pon you [will] come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth[!]” (Matt. 23:33, 35).


Wanting nothing to do any longer with the bloodstained, deceitful churches and their conniving, duplicitous rectors, the secular humanist proselyte concludes that the Bible must be to blame for their unholiness, because they all cite it as the basis for their creeds. Ah, but in so reasoning he falls prey to the critical, yet oh so convenient, non sequitur fallacy! If he would but read his Bible, he might come to understand that it roundly condemns the wrong acts and erroneous theologies of these institutions, exposing them for the shams that they are. But reading the Bible is so inconvenient, whines his subconscious mind, knowing, in the deep recesses of his heart, there are things in his own life that would not pass muster. Besides, he has learned from the higher critics that the Bible is just an outdated, religious book of human origin anyway, so why bother? By this process the imperfect man finds great difficulty in resisting a sophistic school of thought that raises him to the office of final arbiter between that which is morally right and wrong......



......As society—with the aid of populist religions—moves further away from the divine principles outlined in the Bible, the lines of demarcation between right and wrong, good and evil, become increasingly indistinct. Moral “gray areas” expand to encompass actions that until recently were almost universally considered shocking and shameful. Narcissism flourishes. Bible literacy declines, and the effect snowballs. The prophet Isaiah rings out the divine warning, “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!” (Isa. 5:20, 21). Whether or not to align oneself with any particular organized religion, each individual must decide; but as for one’s personal well-being, to paraphrase Theodore Roosevelt: ‘No one, educated or uneducated, can afford to be ignorant of the Bible.’

Rob, you've touched on what I've said on this forum before. It's not God (nor the Bible) that has given "religion" a black eye.... It's the MEN within those organizations, intrusted with dispensing truth, that have run amuck and made these (by and large) politically and selfishly motivated religious organizations.... tools for advancing their own various agendas by douping the masses.

[skiracer]

Hi, Lye. Thanks for the question.

First, I am not KJV only. God gave the Bible in the original Greek and Hebrew languages, not King James' English.

Yes, I do believe God made the earth in six literal, 24 hour days as Genesis account says, "it was morning and evening, the second day . . . the third day, etc."

Something just dawned on me. Because I do believe in God then I have to believe that he created earth in 6 days and rested on the 7th. Does it state anywhere the length, 24 hrs. or something else, of the days? Otherwise how can you believe in God if you don't believe in one of the basic tenents of God, earth, and man and woman. I'm wondering why I find myself at odds with some of the scriptures or moreso the way they have been diluted thru the many interpretations over the course of the last 2000 years.