Religion and science

[Karel]

Karel.... Do you beleive "the flood" (as it's described in the Bible) to be an actual event? why?

Hi Lye, of course not. Attempts to date the flood with the aid of the Bible (and what other source should we use when we consider a historically inerrant Bible) result in a date in the second half of the 3rd millenium BC, except when you give the Septuagint precedence over the extant Hebrew texts, then it moves back a millenium or so. Both dates fall well within the reach of calibrated Carbon dating, and this shows that

1. No evidence for a worldwide disruption like the flood has occurred in this time or these times; indeed, civilizations seem to continue as if nothing happened;
2. What is usually pointed out as evidence of the flood (fossils, evidence of major disruptions) falls mainly very far before this time or these times. (No longer datable by C14, but for instance by the self-calibrating isochron dating methods

There are more reasons, of course, but this should suffice for the moment.

Now I would like to caution you in case you want to quote texts like Matthew 24:37-38 to me, with the implication that Jesus obviously considered the flood to be a historical event. It is well known that in Jesus' time people didn't make the distinction between allegorical/symbolical descriptions of the past and strictly historical descriptions past, as we do. So if you would claim that Jesus believed in the flood, I would agree, but I would not be convinced that His words could only be interpreted in a strictly historical sense. And in case someone would insist that we should interpret His words so: the evidence from science still remains, and we are faced with the dilemma: do we reject science, without any good scientific reason, just on the force of a certain interpretation of the Bible, or do we reject the Bible, because some Biblical inerrantists hold that if the Bible would contain just one significant error, it would fall apart completely. When I see dilemma's like that coming up, I would be inclined to ask whether we didn't take a wrong turn somewhere.

Regards,

Karel

[Rob]

Both dates fall well within the reach of calibrated Carbon dating, . . .

Karel, if you’ve studied radiocarbon dating, then you must be aware that it is not without its inherent problems. For intance, scientists can measure the present-day rate of radioactive carbon formation but have no way of measuring carbon concentrations in the distant past. This prompted the observation by Melvin Cook, a professor of metallurgy, that “One may only guess these concentrations [of radioactive materials], and the age results thus obtained can be no better than this guess.”

You see, this is what I mean about agenda-driven science as opposed to true science. It is not as cut-and-dried and beyond questionability as you have presented it to be.

With regard to your statement, “No evidence for a worldwide disruption like the flood has occurred in this time or these times; indeed, civilizations seem to continue as if nothing happened,” a lot of well-meaning people believe it to be so, and one can certainly find “authorities” on the subject to support this thinking, but it simply is not the case.

Not to mention the fossil evidence and the fact that sea shells can be found in the tops of mountains, virtually every ancient civilization in every far-flung corner of the planet has a legend about their ancestors having survived a global flood. While the embellishments to these legends vary, they all agree on certain central elements. For example: that God was angry at mankind due to their wickedness; that it was he who brought the great flood; that only a few righteous individuals were spared, and they survived by building a huge vessel in which they also saved the many different kinds of animals; that after a time birds were sent out in search of land; that the vessel came to rest on a mountain, and the people offered a sacrifice to God after they came out.

Where are such legends found? Among African Pygmies, European Celts, South American Incas, native peoples of Alaska, Australia, China, India, Lithuania, Mexico, Micronesia, New Zeland, to name only a few. Are these similarities coincidental? Extremely unlikely. Rather it is real evidence—circumstantial but real—that the Bible's account of the flood is not just a fable with a moral lesson.

“The essential differences between Biblical catastrophism [the Flood] and evolutionary uniformitarianism are not over the factual data of geology but over the interpretations of those data. The interpretation preferred will depend largely upon the background and presuppositions of the individual student.”—John McCampbell, professor of geology.

[New-born baby]

Karel, if you’ve studied radiocarbon dating, then you must be aware that it is not without its inherent problems. For intance, scientists can measure the present-day rate of radioactive carbon formation but have no way of measuring carbon concentrations in the distant past. This prompted the observation by Melvin Cook, a professor of metallurgy, that “One may only guess these concentrations [of radioactive materials], and the age results thus obtained can be no better than this guess.”

You see, this is what I mean about agenda-driven science as opposed to true science. It is not as cut-and-dried and beyond questionability as you have presented it to be.

With regard to your statement, “No evidence for a worldwide disruption like the flood has occurred in this time or these times; indeed, civilizations seem to continue as if nothing happened,” a lot of well-meaning people believe it to be so, and one can certainly find “authorities” on the subject to support this thinking, but it simply is not the case.

Not to mention the fossil evidence and the fact that sea shells can be found in the tops of mountains, virtually every ancient civilization in every far-flung corner of the planet has a legend about their ancestors having survived a global flood. While the embellishments to these legends vary, they all agree on certain central elements. For example: that God was angry at mankind due to their wickedness; that it was he who brought the great flood; that only a few righteous individuals were spared, and they survived by building a huge vessel in which they also saved the many different kinds of animals; that after a time birds were sent out in search of land; that the vessel came to rest on a mountain, and the people offered a sacrifice to God after they came out.

Where are such legends found? Among African Pygmies, European Celts, South American Incas, native peoples of Alaska, Australia, China, India, Lithuania, Mexico, Micronesia, New Zeland, to name only a few. Are these similarities coincidental? Extremely unlikely. Rather it is real evidence—circumstantial but real—that the Bible's account of the flood is not just a fable with a moral lesson.

“The essential differences between Biblical catastrophism [the Flood] and evolutionary uniformitarianism are not over the factual data of geology but over the interpretations of those data. The interpretation preferred will depend largely upon the background and presuppositions of the individual student.”—John McCampbell, professor of geology.

Good post, Rob. The fact is that every culture has an account of the flood. The name may not be Noah, but all the cultures speak of an ancient flood of the entire earth.

[Karel]

Karel, if you’ve studied radiocarbon dating, then you must be aware that it is not without its inherent problems. For intance, scientists can measure the present-day rate of radioactive carbon formation but have no way of measuring carbon concentrations in the distant past. This prompted the observation by Melvin Cook, a professor of metallurgy, that “One may only guess these concentrations [of radioactive materials], and the age results thus obtained can be no better than this guess.”

That is why I referred to calibrated carbon dating, which is independent of such assumptions. And really, the objection is rather obvious don't you think? Scientists realized right from the beginning that this was something that needed close attention if they wanted to make carbon dating work, and any method of dating by radioactive decay. So they set out to research this point and resolved it to their satisfaction.

You see, this is what I mean about agenda-driven science as opposed to true science. It is not as cut-and-dried and beyond questionability as you have presented it to be.

In the light of my previous answer, I don't think you have given me enough of an argument to accept your conclusion.

With regard to your statement, “No evidence for a worldwide disruption like the flood has occurred in this time or these times; indeed, civilizations seem to continue as if nothing happened,” a lot of well-meaning people believe it to be so, and one can certainly find “authorities” on the subject to support this thinking, but it simply is not the case.

I am quite certain a lot of well-meaning people think so. And it is not their well-meaningness that is under discussion. But since you don't put up a date for the flood and at least one example of a civilisation that was cut off in that period, with traces of being cut off by a flood, you cannot really hope to convince me here.

Not to mention the fossil evidence and the fact that sea shells can be found in the tops of mountains, virtually every ancient civilization in every far-flung corner of the planet has a legend about their ancestors having survived a global flood. While the embellishments to these legends vary, they all agree on certain central elements. For example: that God was angry at mankind due to their wickedness; that it was he who brought the great flood; that only a few righteous individuals were spared, and they survived by building a huge vessel in which they also saved the many different kinds of animals; that after a time birds were sent out in search of land; that the vessel came to rest on a mountain, and the people offered a sacrifice to God after they came out.

Where are such legends found? Among African Pygmies, European Celts, South American Incas, native peoples of Alaska, Australia, China, India, Lithuania, Mexico, Micronesia, New Zeland, to name only a few. Are these similarities coincidental? Extremely unlikely. Rather it is real evidence—circumstantial but real—that the Bible's account of the flood is not just a fable with a moral lesson.

The claim that all flood myths share the central points you mention seems exaggerated. In fact they are reported to differ even in these central points. You will find a discussion here, and also a collection.

“The essential differences between Biblical catastrophism [the Flood] and evolutionary uniformitarianism are not over the factual data of geology but over the interpretations of those data. The interpretation preferred will depend largely upon the background and presuppositions of the individual student.”—John McCampbell, professor of geology.

Sure, but not completely, I hope.

Now the points you have advanced make me a bit wary, because you seem to come to this discussion much less well prepared than I, and in such a case the results of the discussion will necessarily be skewed towards the better informed participator, apart from the real value of the positions advocated.

Also, while I am quite ready to come forward with my opinions and to defend them, I don't think this forum is the place for an extended creation-evolution debate, so perhaps we can agree to disagree. But if you insist, I am at your service.

Regards,

Karel

[Lyehopper]

I believe that the flood was a real historical event as described in the Bible.... I believe it because I believe the Bible. I have faith that it is "God's word" and I believe God has preserved the Bible for our instruction and benefit.... and it is a book of truth. This does not mean that I think that the KJV was sent from God himself and I do think some Bible translators had/have a personal agenda to further their own belief system and are less interested in promoting the truth. But the truth is out there if you look hard enough.

Back to the flood of Noah's day and my own "redneck reasoning".... I see evidence of a great flood on my own farm and in the entire valley here. Now realize this, I have seen "real floods" in my lifetime. I experienced the great flood of 1985 here in SW VA for example. This flood was known as a 200 year event, it was pretty bad and it is still talked about around these parts. But the flooding I see evidence of here, is something that makes that flood in 1985 look like a piss stream. I see evidence of a flood that covered mountain peaks. Send your best scientists to Bedford County VA and I'll show them where to find thousands of smoothly rounded river rocks (on dry land) miles from any river and at 2,000 feet above sea level. And if one can indeed admit that what I see was caused by flooding? Then why not by that particular Biblical event?

[skiracer]

Hi Lye, of course not. Attempts to date the flood with the aid of the Bible (and what other source should we use when we consider a historically inerrant Bible) result in a date in the second half of the 3rd millenium BC, except when you give the Septuagint precedence over the extant Hebrew texts, then it moves back a millenium or so. Both dates fall well within the reach of calibrated Carbon dating, and this shows that

1. No evidence for a worldwide disruption like the flood has occurred in this time or these times; indeed, civilizations seem to continue as if nothing happened;
2. What is usually pointed out as evidence of the flood (fossils, evidence of major disruptions) falls mainly very far before this time or these times. (No longer datable by C14, but for instance by the self-calibrating isochron dating methods

There are more reasons, of course, but this should suffice for the moment.

Now I would like to caution you in case you want to quote texts like Matthew 24:37-38 to me, with the implication that Jesus obviously considered the flood to be a historical event. It is well known that in Jesus' time people didn't make the distinction between allegorical/symbolical descriptions of the past and strictly historical descriptions past, as we do. So if you would claim that Jesus believed in the flood, I would agree, but I would not be convinced that His words could only be interpreted in a strictly historical sense. And in case someone would insist that we should interpret His words so: the evidence from science still remains, and we are faced with the dilemma: do we reject science, without any good scientific reason, just on the force of a certain interpretation of the Bible, or do we reject the Bible, because some Biblical inerrantists hold that if the Bible would contain just one significant error, it would fall apart completely. When I see dilemma's like that coming up, I would be inclined to ask whether we didn't take a wrong turn somewhere.

Regards,

Karel

Karel,
So as a strict Catholic would you disagree with their doctrine and the Bible as written if there were irrefutable scientific evidence disputing what has been written in the scriptures. I see instances where what the Bible states and what seems rock solid scientific evidence to the contrary differ. My faith and belief in God and how he created heaven and earth and started all of this and what a strictly scientific point of reference states sometimes collide and leave me with questions that are hard to answer. I'm sure many feel the same way caught between their faith and science. Is that the price of intelligence and being an inquisitive open minded personality.
God created the heavens and earth and Adam and Eve in that first 6 days and from that point Adam and Eve propogated the earth up until Noah and his ark and the flood. But on the other hand scientific evidence seems to show there were numerous periods when areas of the planet were completely under water and considered seas/oceans and over the course of time those same areas changed over to arid desert and visa versa. Thus providing us with examples of sea dwelling life at one time or another present in what is now desert and land living creatures where it was once water. Evidence of more than one flood or just a changing planet evolving into what it is today and still evolving as we add our own present day influences.
I see many with unwavoring faith that hold to what the Bible states and will not consider the scientific point of view or any evidence of another concept. I cannot say they are wrong in what they believe. On the other hand at times it is very hard for me to not appreciate the scientific point of view at least to some degree. Can you live in both concepts of faith in God and the Bible as written and stated and while doing so still accept what seems to be solid evidence of other ideas and concepts?
I see that the opposing views and sides of the commentary are becoming harder and more steadfast in their beliefs and positions. I think the thread is quite interesting and is providing us with plenty of decent insight on both sides of the coin. For years I have debated the opposing views inside my own mind and, although not a dilema that I cannot live with, it has given me concern about my own beliefs and faith and what is true. I do firmly believe that man's interpretation of the scriptures and Bible has been influenced by his own agenda whatever that might be at the time. I would hate to see the commentary stop because we are not able to maintain the required decorum as intelligent minds to continue discussing it in a uncompromising fashion. Personally I feel that we all need to understand each other's beliefs without the typical adversity that can come from presenting each sides views on the topic.

[Karel]

I believe that the flood was a real historical event as described in the Bible.... [...]

Lye, I am not out to question your faith, and I am quite ready to respect it. The problem is that you asked me a very specific question, out of curiosity I suppose, and my answer is at odds with your belief. I can't and won't help that, but it is my position and I ask and expect no one to adopt it who is firmly convinced that things are different. But when people ask, I am quite ready to explain my position.

I have also expressed a wish to end the discussion, mainly because it is off-topic for the forum, but also because this can be a very difficult and emotionally charged discussion. So I feel no need to go after your stones

Regards,

Karel

[New-born baby]

Karel

KAREL:
I hate to interrupt the flood like this but . . . some deviant is posting XXX photos on MM forums. Can you correct this? Thanks!

[Rob]

Karel,

Re Flood legends, samples from six continents and the islands of the sea (hundreds of such legends are known):

Australia - Kurnai
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Babylon - Berossus’ account
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Babylon - Gilgamesh epic
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Bolivia - Chiriguano
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Borneo - Sea Dayak
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Burma - Singpho
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Canada - Cree
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Canada - Montagnais
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

China - Lolo
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Cuba - original natives
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

East Africa - Masai
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Egypt - Book of the Dead
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Fiji - Walavu-levu tradition
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

French Polynesia - Raïatéa
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared

Greece - Lucian’s account
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Guyana - Macushi
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Iceland - Eddas
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

India - Andaman Islands
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

India - Bhil
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

India - Kamar
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Iran - Zend-Avesta
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared

Italy - Ovid’s poetry
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Malay Peninsula - Jakun
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Mexico - Codex Chimalpopoca
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Mexico - Huichol
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

New Zealand - Maori
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Peru - Indians of Huarochirí
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared

Russia - Vogul
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

U.S.A. (Alaska) - Kolusches
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

U.S.A. (Alaska) - Tlingit
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

U.S.A. (Arizona) - Papago
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

U.S.A. (Hawaii) - legend of Nu-u
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Vanuatu - Melanesians
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Vietnam - Bahnar
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

Wales - Dwyfan/Dwyfach legend
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a Vessel

“Even greater similarities to the Genesis account are present in another Babylonian epic whose hero bears the name Gilgamesh. . . . It most likely came into existence around the beginning of the second millennium. . . . [Clay tablet XI] is virtually intact, thus providing the most complete version of the deluge story in cuneiform script.”—Encyclopædia Judaica.

“Like the Hebrews, Babylonians, Greeks, Norsemen, and other peoples of the Old World, many Indian tribes of North and South America had traditions of the Deluge. . . . ‘When the earliest missionaries came’ . . . , the Reverend Myron Eells reported in 1878, ‘they found that those Indians had their traditions of a flood, and that one man and his wife were saved on a raft.’”—Indian Legends of the Pacific Northwest.

Aztec mythology spoke of four previous ages, during the first of which the earth was inhabited by giants. (That is another reminder of the Nephilim, the giants referred to in the Bible at Genesis 6:4.) It included a primeval flood legend in which “the waters above merge with those below, obliterating the horizons and making of everything a timeless cosmic ocean.” The god controlling rain and water was Tlaloc. However, his rain was not obtained cheaply but was given “in exchange for the blood of sacrificed victims whose flowing tears would simulate and so stimulate the flow of rain.”—Mythology—An Illustrated Encyclopedia

The Incas had their Flood legends. British writer Harold Osborne states: “Perhaps the most ubiquitous features in South American myth are the stories of a deluge . . . Myths of a deluge are very widespread among both the highland peoples and the tribes of the tropical lowlands. The deluge is commonly connected with the creation and with an epiphany [manifestation] of the creator-god. . . . It is sometimes regarded as a divine punishment wiping out existing humankind in preparation for the emergence of a new race.” The book Sociografia del Inkario states: “All the traditions of the people of the Andean altiplano speak of a flood that had submerged the whole earth.”

“A world cataclysm during which the earth was inundated or submerged by water [is] a concept found in almost every mythology in the world. . . . In Inca mythology it was provoked by the supreme god, Viracocha, who was dissatisfied with the first men and decided to destroy them.”—Funk and Wagnalls Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology and Legend.

The Maya in Mexico and Central America had their Flood legend that involved a universal deluge, or haiyococab, which means “water over the earth.” Catholic bishop Las Casas wrote that the Guatemalan Indians “called it Butic, which is the word which means flood of many waters and means the final judgment, and so they believe that another Butic is about to come, which is another flood and judgment, not of water, but of fire.”

Various stories among the Haida tell of a great flood that covered the highest peaks, and only by building a big log raft and loading it with supplies did anyone survive. “Many of our people know this story of the Flood,” says a Haida elder, “for it is the truth. It really happened, a great many years ago.”

In India, there is the Mahabharata’s story of Manu, who saved humanity from a global deluge. The flood was “the most important landmark in the history of the ancient world, and common flood legends suggest that the same event has been described in Indian, Hebrew, and Babylonian accounts.”—The Vedic Age

I have much, much more where this came from, which I hope would at least disabuse you of the notion that I am ill-prepared. (And shame on you, by the way, for resorting to ad-hominem.) But you are correct that this forum is not the place to hash this out, and appears neither of us will convince the other of the real or alleged deficiencies in the bases for his beliefs.

I have one question though, and you may treat it as rhetorical if you like: In Jesus’ genealogy back to Adam in the third chapter of Luke, at what point does it jump from real, flesh-and-blood people to make-believe people? (Obviously my contention is that it doesn’t.)

[Karel]

KAREL:
I hate to interrupt the flood like this but . . . some deviant is posting XXX photos on MM forums. Can you correct this? Thanks!

Sure thing, thank you for alerting me! BTW, a PM is guaranteed to get my attention, though this thread happens to have my attention right now, too.

Regards,

Karel

[peanuts]

I have one question though, and you may treat it as rhetorical if you like: In Jesus’ genealogy back to Adam in the third chapter of Luke, at what point does it jump from real, flesh-and-blood people to make-believe people? (Obviously my contention is that it doesn’t.)

Rob,

I find this conversation fascinating.

May I ask your belief on something? If you don't care to share, I understand. However, being the informed and personally respected person that I think you are, I would appreciate your response.

Since you mention Jesus' geneology, could you please tell me whether he was divine or created? Is he equal with God the father, or lesser, or more?

Thank you.

[Karel]

Rob, you give just under 40 examples of flood stories, while the collection I referenced gives over 6 times as many. The collator of the stories gives these conclusions:

1. Flood myths are widespread, but they are not all the same myth. They differ in many important aspects, including

* reasons for the flood. (Most do not give a reason.)
* who survived. (Almost none have only a family of eight surviving.)
* what they took with them. (Very few saved samples of all life.)
* how they survived. (In about half the myths, people escaped to high ground; some flood myths have no survivors.)
* what they did afterwards. (Few feature any kind of sacrifice after the flood.)

2. Flood myths are likely common because floods are common; the commonness of the myth in no way implies a global flood. [snip vapid comment]

These were more or less the points you mentioned:

they all agree on certain central elements. For example: that God was angry at mankind due to their wickedness; that it was he who brought the great flood; that only a few righteous individuals were spared, and they survived by building a huge vessel in which they also saved the many different kinds of animals; that after a time birds were sent out in search of land; that the vessel came to rest on a mountain, and the people offered a sacrifice to God after they came out.

Not even the stories you mention agree on all these elements. Presumably the count becomes even lower when you add the 200+ other stories, if the collator did his job. And what do you intend to prove by accepting each and every single agreements as proof, while rejecting all the rest? What is your methodology?

And why did you ignore my other points?

Please accept my apologies for unintentionally offending you. I was just worried, if you can accept that.

And your question about the genealogy just doesn't make sense to me. Honestly.

Regards,

Karel

[Rob]

Since you mention Jesus' geneology, could you please tell me whether he was divine or created? Is he equal with God the father, or lesser, or more?

Peanuts, I believe Jesus is the Son of God, thus not his equal. I believe he is, as Colossians 1:15 says, "the firstborn of every creature." He himself said "my Father is greater than I." (John 14:2 And at John 20:17 he said to Mary after his resurrection: "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." In Revelation 3:12 he refers to the Father as his God four times in that single verse. At 1 Cor. 15:28 Paul shows that after all things are fulfilled, Jesus is still subject to his Father.

This is a question and a subject which is more sorely contested than that of the historicity of the flood and of Adam and Eve's ceation, and I will write no more about it, because this is most definitely not the proper place to carry on such an arguement.

There are counter arguments to this position based in Scripture, which sound belivable on the surface—and believe me, I've dealt with them all—but I have found satisfying, sound, and logical explanations for each apparent contradiction.

I'll give you just one example: People will point to John 20:28, where, after putting his finger in the holes in Jesus' hands, "Thomas answered and said unto him [Jesus], My LORD and my God," and they will say this proves Jesus is God. If you apply this same logic to Matthew 16:23, though, then you would have to conclude that the apostle Peter is Satan.

I choose not to open that can of worms here, because I've been through it on message boards too many times. It's an endless debate in which no one is convinced and feelings get hurt.

[Rob]

Karel, forgive me for the ambiguous wording. What I meant was, all of the flood legends agree on multiple central points, among which are .... etc. I did not mean to say that every legend agrees on every detail on the list, although reading it back I can see where it could be taken that way. Nevertheless, there is an uncanny similarity and common thread that runs through ancient legends from virtually every place on earth.

And why did you ignore my other points?

While I didn't answer them, neither did I ignore them. It took me two hours to gather up and type that previous post, at the end of which I said it "appears neither of us will convince the other of the real or alleged deficiencies in the bases for his beliefs." It is apparent we have reached an impasse, and I'm willing to let it lie.

[Lyehopper]

Lye, I am not out to question your faith, and I am quite ready to respect it. The problem is that you asked me a very specific question, out of curiosity I suppose, and my answer is at odds with your belief. I can't and won't help that, but it is my position and I ask and expect no one to adopt it who is firmly convinced that things are different. But when people ask, I am quite ready to explain my position.

I have also expressed a wish to end the discussion, mainly because it is off-topic for the forum, but also because this can be a very difficult and emotionally charged discussion. So I feel no need to go after your stones

Regards,

Karel

I'm not asking you to accept my belief either.... and I'm not getting emotionally charged. I just wanted to make a simple statement about my personal belief about the flood. And I am pretty sure that at one time in history the mountains here were indeed covered with swift moving water and river rocks were deposited in the soil around here.... Some are the size of a basketball, but most are about three to six inches in diameter. Again, these are not your basic flat field stones, these are rounded like a ball and smooth. I find this very interesting....

Of course those anti-creationist who beleive in the apemen might say that I simply live where there once was a HUGE caveman sporting goods factory that made rock balls for fun and profit.... and these are just relics left behind from that enterprise....