Religion and science

[Rob]

Do we have a Bible for Mars? What if they find life there? Sounds like there is a good chance it exists.

I don't think there is any life on Mars (not even on Saturday night) ...... but if there is, they sure haven't done much with the place.

[mrmarket]

I don't think there is any life on Mars (not even on Saturday night) ...... but if there is, they sure haven't done much with the place.

LOL.......

[Lyehopper]

The only wrong point would not being able to illustrate what you think or feel in a friendly fashion amongst ourselves.

Actually I'm enjoying the discussion here. I don't think I'm being unfriendly.... at least I don't mean to be.... btw, who started this anyway? Doug? yeah, it must have been Doug.LOL!

[IIC]

Actually I'm enjoying the discussion here. I don't think I'm being unfriendly.... at least I don't mean to be.... btw, who started this anyway? Doug? yeah, it must have been Doug.LOL!

Never the credit...Always the blame...

[Lyehopper]

I am not playing chess.

A group of chess enthusiasts checked into a hotel and were standing In the lobby discussing their recent tournament victories.... After about an hour, the manager came out of the office and asked them to disperse.... "But Why?" they asked, as they moved off.... "Because", he said, "I can't stand chess-nuts boasting in an open foyer."

[Websman]

Do we have a Bible for Mars? What if they find life there? Sounds like there is a good chance it exists.

Here is the bible for Mars...

http://www.enterprisemission.com/

[Karel]

I have a bit of time again, and things seem to have cooled down a bit (the heat may have been my perception), so I would finally like to explain my position on the Bible. But I can hardly imagine that there really is any doubt at least about part of my position, see my answer to Lye when he asked me

Karel.... Do you beleive "the flood" (as it's described in the Bible) to be an actual event? why?

This is just a part of my position, because it only concerns the historical and scientific aspects of the problem. But as I mentioned in a reply to Ski, I not only want to live in the world of science and hard facts, but also in the world of faith. And that means that I might give two different answers to a question like "Do you believe in the flood?"

When someone, like Lye, asks me to consider the flood as an actual event, the context is the world of science and history, and in this case my answer is "No". When the question however is asked in the context of faith, for instance when I am asked to preach about the Noach story, I would approach the story not from the outside, but rather from the inside, and implicitly accept its truth.

In that same answer to Lye, I explained

It is well known that in Jesus' time people didn't make the distinction between allegorical/symbolical descriptions of the past and strictly historical descriptions [of the] past, as we do.

This is more or less what I do, but instead of not making the distinction, which would be impossible in this time and place, I refuse to let it rule me and my insights. When asked about the objective world, I will not let my faith interfere with my insights about objective fact, and when asked about my faith, I will not allow science to make inroads on my belief. After all, John 3:16 is not an observable, testable, objective fact. It is what Christians believe about God, on the strength of God's revelation in Jesus Christ. Instead I need to be careful not to blur the distinction, and problems may arise when I am not sure about how to draw the divide.

And with reference to John 11, my provisional answer is again both "No" and "Yes". Scientifically speaking the story allows for different scenarios, like "It didn't happen" and "Lazarus wasn't really dead", but I am not really interested in the scientific side of the story. From the perspective of faith the story isn't quite unambiguous either, but here also I still haven't figured things out to my satisfaction. The raising of Lazarus is true, but how exactly? Rereading the story (it continues for a bit in Chapter 12), I found it strange how Lazarus was not reunited with his sisters, how his sisters do not react to the sign, and how after his raising Lazarus doesn't seem to interact with anyone. (One may remark that all this was just not mentioned, but I don't like to add "obvious" details when their absence might have a meaning.) It seems as if the raising was not meant as a late cure, or for the benefit of Lazarus' sisters, "but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified thereby." (John 11:4) Which in fact happened, see John 11:45. How this reflects back on my understanding of the truth of this sign, I haven't figured out yet. For a historical and scientific view these details hardly seem to make a difference.

Well, this was long enough already for a post. Feedback is appreciated!

Regards,

Karel

[Lyehopper]

Simple question for everyone interested in this discussion....Do you believe in God?

And with reference to John 11, my provisional answer is again both "No" and "Yes".

Again, not everything can be explained by "science".... Not everything has an explanation period! Take the very existence of "God" or even "the devil" for that matter. I've never seen God. I've never seen the devil. But I believe (have faith) they exist as real spirit creatures (Hebrews 11:1). I see evidence of what God has created and I see evidence of the devil's influence on this world. AND I have a thousand other reasons that I believe in these spirit creatures but I don't want to write a book here....

Karel, a simple question for you and anyone else that wants to answer....

Do you believe in the LITERAL existence of "a great spirit creature?".... The one refer'd to in the Bible as YAHWEH*, Almighty God, The Creator, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, just and loving Father in heaven?.... You know? That "spirit person" that one praises when they utter the word Hallelujah?...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallelujah

*(other spellings also are; Yehwah, Yehwih, Yehowah, Yehowah, Jehovah)

I think those who read this question and are completely "turned off" by it or even disgusted by it.... have had their thinking formed by the very organizations that I have been "demonizing" in previous posts on this forum.

I can honestly see why so many today reject God, why so many lose faith. It's the fault of MEN who have a grave responsibility to "shepherd God's flock".... They have failed miserably (as a whole).... And as a result many have turned their backs on God due to the bad taste "religion" has put in their mouths. SAD! very sad.... btw I read this article just today in our local paper as I had my morning coffee. (AP article, I googled for it and found it here too, see link below)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0701100126jan10,1,5202567.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed

[ParkTwain]

Evolution doubters, take note

Anyone can visit and hike up to the famous Burgess Shale fossil site (Walcott quarry) in Yoho National Park in British Columbia, Canada. Stephen Jay Gould, paleontologist at Harvard U., wrote a famous book called Wonderful Life about this site. Here are a couple of pages.

http://www.burgess-shale.bc.ca/

http://www.pc.gc.ca/apprendre-learn/prof/sub/burgess/factsheet2_e.asp

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/cambrian/burgess.html

[peanuts]

Again, not everything can be explained by "science".... Not everything has an explanation period! Take the very existence of "God" or even "the devil" for that matter. I've never seen God. I've never seen the devil. But I believe (have faith) they exist as real spirit creatures (Hebrews 11:1). I see evidence of what God has created and I see evidence of the devil's influence on this world. AND I have a thousand other reasons that I believe in these spirit creatures but I don't want to write a book here....

Karel, a simple question for you and anyone else that wants to answer....

Do you believe in the LITERAL existence of "a great spirit creature?".... The one refer'd to in the Bible as YAHWEH*, Almighty God, The Creator, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, just and loving Father in heaven?.... You know? That "spirit person" that one praises when they utter the word Hallelujah?...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallelujah

*(other spellings also are; Yehwah, Yehwih, Yehowah, Yehowah, Jehovah)

I think those who read this question and are completely "turned off" by it or even disgusted by it.... have had their thinking formed by the very organizations that I have been "demonizing" in previous posts on this forum.

I can honestly see why so many today reject God, why so many lose faith. It's the fault of MEN who have a grave responsibility to "shepherd God's flock".... They have failed miserably (as a whole).... And as a result many have turned their backs on God due to the bad taste "religion" has put in their mouths. SAD! very sad.... btw I read this article just today in our local paper as I had my morning coffee. (AP article, I googled for it and found it here too, see link below)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...ationworld-hed

Lye,

I believe in God. I also believe he is not trapped in a box that we are supposed to visit each Sabbath.

[Lyehopper]

Anyone can visit and hike up to the famous Burgess Shale fossil site (Walcott quarry) in Yoho National Park in British Columbia, Canada. Stephen Jay Gould, paleontologist at Harvard U., wrote a famous book called Wonderful Life about this site. Here are a couple of pages.

http://www.burgess-shale.bc.ca/

http://www.pc.gc.ca/apprendre-learn/prof/sub/burgess/factsheet2_e.asp

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/cambrian/burgess.html

I'm confused Park.... I thought you were a supporter of the theory of evolution? These articles seem to shed doubt on the theory.

BTW, These sea creatures fossilized on mountains lends further evidence that the earth was once covered by water, don't you think?

[Karel]

I'm confused Park.... I thought you were a supporter of the theory of evolution? These articles seem to shed doubt on the theory.

BTW, These sea creatures fossilized on mountains lends further evidence that the earth was once covered by water, don't you think?

Creationist Claim CC364: Sea fossils have been found on mountaintops.

Regards,

Karel

[grebnet]

Blah-Blah

Creationist Claim CC364: Sea fossils have been found on mountaintops.

Regards,

Karel

Who cares if they had clambakes back then.

[Lyehopper]

Creationist Claim CC364: Sea fossils have been found on mountaintops.

Regards,

Karel

And you call that reasoning "science?".... Do some more real research and you'll find some very solid scientific evidence that this earth has experienced a very violent global flood in it's history.

Karel, Do you believe in a literal, living All-Mighty God as I described earlier?

[Karel]

And you call that reasoning "science?".... Do some more real research and you'll find some very solid scientific evidence that this earth has experienced a very violent global flood in it's history.

Karel, Do you believe in a literal, living All-Mighty God as I described earlier?

Yes, I call that reasoning science. If you see problems with it, please mention them.

Again, not everything can be explained by "science".... Not everything has an explanation period! Take the very existence of "God" or even "the devil" for that matter. I've never seen God. I've never seen the devil. But I believe (have faith) they exist as real spirit creatures (Hebrews 11:1). I see evidence of what God has created and I see evidence of the devil's influence on this world. AND I have a thousand other reasons that I believe in these spirit creatures but I don't want to write a book here....

Well of course not everything has an explanation. There are things we do not know and never may know. But the fact that not everything has an explanation does not necessarily point to God. To put it succinctly: in the past we had a lot more unsolved scientific problems, and todays solutions for those problems never include God.

Then there are things we never can know, objectively speaking. Job's "I know that my redeemer lives" is not really objective. Rather the opposite.

Karel, a simple question for you and anyone else that wants to answer....

Do you believe in the LITERAL existence of "a great spirit creature?".... The one refer'd to in the Bible as YAHWEH*, Almighty God, The Creator, All-Powerful, All-Knowing, just and loving Father in heaven?.... You know? That "spirit person" that one praises when they utter the word Hallelujah?...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallelujah

*(other spellings also are; Yehwah, Yehwih, Yehowah, Yehowah, Jehovah)

I think those who read this question and are completely "turned off" by it or even disgusted by it.... have had their thinking formed by the very organizations that I have been "demonizing" in previous posts on this forum.

Well, I like to keep it simple: I believe in God and in his Son Jesus Christ. I don't know what 'LITERAL existence of "a great spirit creature"' adds. We cannot hope to understand spiritual existence, only by conjecture.

I can honestly see why so many today reject God, why so many lose faith. It's the fault of MEN who have a grave responsibility to "shepherd God's flock".... They have failed miserably (as a whole).... And as a result many have turned their backs on God due to the bad taste "religion" has put in their mouths. SAD! very sad.... btw I read this article just today in our local paper as I had my morning coffee. (AP article, I googled for it and found it here too, see link below)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...ationworld-hed

I think you are being too negative about the rejection of God. Obviously I don't agree with your judgment on Christian leaders you disagree with.

And I agree that the Roman Catholic Church needs to address the problem of sexual abuse more proactively.

Regards,

Karel