OT: Health care reform

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  • peanuts
    Senior Member
    • Feb 2006
    • 3365

    #31
    I recognize that US healthcare costs are the limiting factor to availability for those in need, as well as determining the quality of care received. You can get basic care through the providers on your insurance, or you can get the absolute best by paying up and going to specialists. The population of the world's best specialists are concentrated in the US. Why? Because they get paid the most for their top of the line services. This is an effect of the wealth structure and system that is currently in place. These specialists may not have the most clients, but the clients that they do have recognize the quality of care and pay top dollar for it. The specialist's knowledge and skill is rewarded with higher wages and a better working environment. The fact that these specialists come from all around the world to practice in the US is a testament to the effectiveness of the current market-based system to attract and retain talent. This, in turn, helps the reputation of all of the US physicians and the trickle down effects are felt by all specialists in the US, not just the #1 specialist in each specialty. This fact of the best practitioners and stellar reputation is being under-appreciated with the new Act.

    I keep hearing figures of "30 million" uninsured. So, that is less than 1 in 10 Americans... And that does not mean that 1 in 10 is unhealthy and requires healthcare. Of the 1 in that 1 in 10, there is another statistic... how many are sick AND uninsured? The act offers that statistic of a statistic the opportunity to get healthcare and have the rest of America pay for it. Great for that person! I mean it; it is morally good to care for others that cannot care for themselves. Be mindful of my caveat, because there is a lot of room for abuse. People will take advantage of the goodness of others and feign ineptitude to shirk responsibility.

    My theory (qualitative analysis) is that this number of 1 in 10 is being used to extrapolate costs going into the future. But, the statistics will skew as the Act opens the possibility for more participants in the government plan. In a matter of a few years, the people who are on the government plan will swell, and the costs of the Act will, like most other government plans, increase in greater proportion than the participants.

    My theory is that this will cost much more than what any figure today predicts. These costs are going to be passed onto the taxpayers, and this tax will increase at a rate less than the amount needed to cover the increasing costs. It will be another government system gone wrong. With costs eventually becoming greater than the tax income. But, not to worry, we'll just bundle the shortfall into some bonds and sell them to another country at an inflated credit rating. Then pay the interest on those bonds with the issuance of more bonds. I can't wait to see what kind of healthcare we get then.

    My theory also portends an exodus of talent. With a system that levels the costs that can be charged for procedures, why would a #1 specialist want to practice in an environment where he/she cannot reap the #1 rewards?

    Another theory I have suggests that every healthcare provider will now have to get their own lobbyist. Plastic surgeons will have to lobby to increase the amount they can legally charge for double D's. Maxillofacial surgeons will have to lobby for dental implant costs. And this will go on and on. The whole system will become a popularity and money game. If you are a doctor in the field and are not represented by a lobbyist that has connections and is well funded, well sorry, but your kids have to go to public school too.

    Is there a better way to fix the costs and availability of healthcare in the US without making it a government entity? Yes, there has to be. What is being offered is a fast and cheap way out of the problem. It is not a well thought out plan. It will not reduce costs over time. It will reduce talent. It will increase corruption.

    One of the principles of which this country was founded upon was LESS GOVERNMENT. If anyone thinks that the Declaration of Independence was written because a few land owners didn't want to pay taxes, then you don't know history. It goes much deeper than that. Oppression from large government, whose dictates violated the inalienable rights of the people for which is was supposed to serve, led to the American Revolution.

    As they say, history has a way of repeating itself.
    Hide not your talents.
    They for use were made.
    What's a sundial in the shade?

    - Benjamin Franklin

    Comment

    • skiracer
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2004
      • 6314

      #32
      Originally posted by peanuts View Post
      I recognize that US healthcare costs are the limiting factor to availability for those in need, as well as determining the quality of care received. You can get basic care through the providers on your insurance, or you can get the absolute best by paying up and going to specialists. The population of the world's best specialists are concentrated in the US. Why? Because they get paid the most for their top of the line services. This is an effect of the wealth structure and system that is currently in place. These specialists may not have the most clients, but the clients that they do have recognize the quality of care and pay top dollar for it. The specialist's knowledge and skill is rewarded with higher wages and a better working environment. The fact that these specialists come from all around the world to practice in the US is a testament to the effectiveness of the current market-based system to attract and retain talent. This, in turn, helps the reputation of all of the US physicians and the trickle down effects are felt by all specialists in the US, not just the #1 specialist in each specialty. This fact of the best practitioners and stellar reputation is being under-appreciated with the new Act.

      I keep hearing figures of "30 million" uninsured. So, that is less than 1 in 10 Americans... And that does not mean that 1 in 10 is unhealthy and requires healthcare. Of the 1 in that 1 in 10, there is another statistic... how many are sick AND uninsured? The act offers that statistic of a statistic the opportunity to get healthcare and have the rest of America pay for it. Great for that person! I mean it; it is morally good to care for others that cannot care for themselves. Be mindful of my caveat, because there is a lot of room for abuse. People will take advantage of the goodness of others and feign ineptitude to shirk responsibility.

      My theory (qualitative analysis) is that this number of 1 in 10 is being used to extrapolate costs going into the future. But, the statistics will skew as the Act opens the possibility for more participants in the government plan. In a matter of a few years, the people who are on the government plan will swell, and the costs of the Act will, like most other government plans, increase in greater proportion than the participants.

      My theory is that this will cost much more than what any figure today predicts. These costs are going to be passed onto the taxpayers, and this tax will increase at a rate less than the amount needed to cover the increasing costs. It will be another government system gone wrong. With costs eventually becoming greater than the tax income. But, not to worry, we'll just bundle the shortfall into some bonds and sell them to another country at an inflated credit rating. Then pay the interest on those bonds with the issuance of more bonds. I can't wait to see what kind of healthcare we get then.

      My theory also portends an exodus of talent. With a system that levels the costs that can be charged for procedures, why would a #1 specialist want to practice in an environment where he/she cannot reap the #1 rewards?

      Another theory I have suggests that every healthcare provider will now have to get their own lobbyist. Plastic surgeons will have to lobby to increase the amount they can legally charge for double D's. Maxillofacial surgeons will have to lobby for dental implant costs. And this will go on and on. The whole system will become a popularity and money game. If you are a doctor in the field and are not represented by a lobbyist that has connections and is well funded, well sorry, but your kids have to go to public school too.

      Is there a better way to fix the costs and availability of healthcare in the US without making it a government entity? Yes, there has to be. What is being offered is a fast and cheap way out of the problem. It is not a well thought out plan. It will not reduce costs over time. It will reduce talent. It will increase corruption.

      One of the principles of which this country was founded upon was LESS GOVERNMENT. If anyone thinks that the Declaration of Independence was written because a few land owners didn't want to pay taxes, then you don't know history. It goes much deeper than that. Oppression from large government, whose dictates violated the inalienable rights of the people for which is was supposed to serve, led to the American Revolution.

      As they say, history has a way of repeating itself.
      decent post peanuts. right on the money.
      THE SKIRACER'S EDGE: MAKE THE EDGE IN YOUR FAVOR

      Comment

      • toxo
        Member
        • Nov 2008
        • 86

        #33
        Interview

        Mr. Peter
        Loved the transcript of the interview. It's almost like the old adage, the defintion of a conservative. Merely a progressive whos been mugged. With all due respect.:^)))

        Comment

        • IIC
          Senior Member
          • Nov 2003
          • 14938

          #34
          Shouldn't there be a premium for a healthy lifestyle?

          That's an interesting question...But much more complex than it appears.

          The first thing that comes to mind is smokers...Should I pay more because I smoke?...I already pay thru the nose in cigarette taxes. I exercise 3x a week...Altho I'm not saying that the exercise completely offsets the smoking...Shouldn't I get some reduction for that?...Also, as of yesterday I weigh exactly the same as I did when I graduated from HS in 1971...Might be proportioned a little bit differently but I want my weight credit.

          I also want my lifestyle risk credit...I'm fairly certain I have less risk of getting shot than the guy up the street that works the late shift at the liquor store...And since I day trade from home I think I have less chance of getting beat up and robbed than the guy up the street who rides the bus to work everyday.

          And since I am at home so much I think I should pay less than Joe the Taxi Driver since I have less chance of getting injured in a car accident.

          The list goes on and on...Doug
          "Trade What Is Happening...Not What You Think Is Gonna Happen"

          Find Tomorrow's Winners At SharpTraders.com

          Follow Me On Twitter

          Comment

          • skiracer
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2004
            • 6314

            #35
            Originally posted by IIC View Post
            Shouldn't there be a premium for a healthy lifestyle?

            That's an interesting question...But much more complex than it appears.

            The first thing that comes to mind is smokers...Should I pay more because I smoke?...I already pay thru the nose in cigarette taxes. I exercise 3x a week...Altho I'm not saying that the exercise completely offsets the smoking...Shouldn't I get some reduction for that?...Also, as of yesterday I weigh exactly the same as I did when I graduated from HS in 1971...Might be proportioned a little bit differently but I want my weight credit.

            I also want my lifestyle risk credit...I'm fairly certain I have less risk of getting shot than the guy up the street that works the late shift at the liquor store...And since I day trade from home I think I have less chance of getting beat up and robbed than the guy up the street who rides the bus to work everyday.

            And since I am at home so much I think I should pay less than Joe the Taxi Driver since I have less chance of getting injured in a car accident.

            The list goes on and on...Doug
            your is an interesting position doug. we are approaching that now with everyone's list and self interests needing to be satisfied. i'm beginning to think there is no answer that is going to satisfy everyone or even a majority. finding a solution is going to take excellent leadership from everyone in washington. i just don't see that quality there or the desire to work together for the benefit of the people. and then we dont want the govt to be to involved in our lives by governing and making new regs for everything. i think running the country has evolved into such a multi faceted quagmire of special interests that it has gotten out of hand and is larger than the leaders we have in place understand or can handle because you cannot be politically correct in every instance and govern effectively. and there are too many interests that need to be satisfied on every issue.
            THE SKIRACER'S EDGE: MAKE THE EDGE IN YOUR FAVOR

            Comment

            • riverbabe
              Senior Member
              • May 2005
              • 3373

              #36
              Originally posted by Belaruski View Post
              your is an interesting position doug. we are approaching that now with everyone's list and self interests needing to be satisfied. i'm beginning to think there is no answer that is going to satisfy everyone or even a majority. finding a solution is going to take excellent leadership from everyone in washington. i just don't see that quality there or the desire to work together for the benefit of the people. and then we dont want the govt to be to involved in our lives by governing and making new regs for everything. i think running the country has evolved into such a multi faceted quagmire of special interests that it has gotten out of hand and is larger than the leaders we have in place understand or can handle because you cannot be politically correct in every instance and govern effectively. and there are too many interests that need to be satisfied on every issue.
              All I can say is AMEN Ski and AMEN Doug.

              Comment

              • Raindrop
                Junior Member
                • Mar 2010
                • 10

                #37
                I am little late to the discussion but here are my thoughts.

                In my view, recent healthcare law (aka Obamacare) does not change much in regard to long term effects on health care delivery system in US.

                Lets say 10 years ago a 'group health insurance premium' (paid by employers) was about $500 a month for a family, co-pay was in range of $10-$15 (on nationwide average) for a visit and with relatively small deductables.

                Now here is the kicker, generally accepted inflation rate in US is about 2.5% to 3% a year but health care insurance cost is rising at 9% a year. As many folks on this forum will recognize that such a steep increase in price is not sustainable, consult articles on dot com bubble or housing bubble for more in-depth explanation. A common thing about bubbles is that they just feel like life as normal and don't seem like bubble at all, till they burst off coarse.

                So if health insurance cost keeps on increasing at 9% at year, then in about 8 years from a now it would cost about $1200 a month for a 'group plan' for a family (paid by employer). At the that time it would be impossible for the employers to pay for the health insurance without unloading some cost on to the employees. And businesses have already figured it out and planned accordingly. Companies have urged the Congress to pass HSA law (Health Saving Accounts) few years ago. HSA are being used by companies to unload health insurance cost on to the employees. So 8 years from now an employee may have to pay half of the premium, which will amount to $600 a month for a family, with $50-$70 co-pays and $2500 - $5000 in deductible before insurance will pay anything.

                About the same time MEDICARE will be running out of funds, currently it is estimated that MEDICARE will run out sometime around 2017 and this is a pre-recession era estimate BTW.

                So 8 years from now Americans will find that Plastic health insurance card (MEDICARE or private) in their wallet is pretty much worthless or soon going to be worthless. Currently people are objecting to Government run health care system because they think that the plastic card in their wallet gives them better option than the Government run system. Their thinking will change when they would find that the card in their wallet is becoming more of a liability.

                So in those days if a Government run clinic/hospital opens in a neighborhood, my guess is people will flock to that Government run clinic rather than paying sky-high premiums. People may even be begging the Government to open one clinic in their communities, just like people were begging the Government to save the financial system in 2008 (in case if anyone still remembers the headlines from 2008 ). And when that time will come, no one would remember or care about Obamacare, it will be just irrelevant.

                So my point in a nutshell is; Obamacare does not do much to change the steep increase in the health care delivery cost. And therefore Obamacare would not prevent the inevitable collapse of current health care system in about 8-10 years, so it is pretty much irrelevant in its current form.

                Just my 2 cents.

                Raindrop

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