Rob's Lobs

[mrmarket]

I have had dozens of these pro / con gun discussions on the internet and in person.

I am not a gun owner and have never felt the need to own one. I always clearly state that I don't want to take people's guns away.

Regardless, it amazes me how hard some gun owners, and gun lovers, try to convince me that I should want to own a gun. Huh?

[mrmarket]

I honestly don't think you (or rob) are mentally challenged...I was just slightly pissed that you lumped me into a crowd where I'd be most unwelcome. And I think its moronic that you and others like you label those like me think w is the worse president ever "pinkos". I guess by that reasoning you've labeled the entire country "pinko" given that dumbya has an approval rating of less than 1/3.

Lets face it, having a handgun is more dangerous for most people than not having one. A friend of mine, a cop who was also in Nam, accidently shot his wife in the stomach while cleaning his handgun. And this guy has been around guns his whole life. Another friend of mine, a cop in VA, was with his girlfriend one day and she asked to see his gun. He thought he unloaded it, but while in the bathroom and heard a shot. He came back to see his girl friend's brains blown all over the bedroom. These are just 2 examples of how dangerous and easy it is to have an "accident" with hand gun. I've been around guns since I was 5 years old but I always get nervous when someone at hunting camp brings out his hand gun to clean it or show it off.

I agree with Tatnic on this one.

[Lyehopper]

Rob sez:

"I'm glad a lot of people own guns, because the fact that criminals and potential criminals don't know which ones tends to keep them at bay."


What evidence do you have for this? What might seem to be common sense might not be borne out by the facts.

What's wrong with common sense?..... Ok Park, here's a scenario;

An armed punk/crackhead wants to carjack and ROB someone at a stoplight late one evening.

(1) I pull up to the stoplight in my diesel F-350 truck, with my flat top haircut, my redneck and a NRA sticker on the rear glass.... I look the thug square in the eyes and wink, he looks away.

(2) You pull up behind me in your Volvo station-wagon, with a your wire-rim glasses and your "Outlaw Handguns NOW" bumper sticker.... You nervously look for the light to change.

Question; Who's safer, you or me? LOL!

Moral of my little story; If you don't like guns? at least pretend to.

[ParkTwain]

Nice idea for a movie, who's playing the role of you? This is more "gun fantasy" stuff. I'll take Harrison Ford in the role of me, wearing "granny glasses" as in the movie "The Mosquito Coast." hahahahahaha

The fact that the punk has a handgun to begin with is a function of the present gun laws, which are obviously broken. Like, why does a full-time college student at Va. Tech, most likely living on campus (but perhaps not, granted), need to purchase two handguns? (CNN reports today that the cops found a March 2007 receipt for purchase of a handgun in the shooter's backpack. However, it is also reported that the Va. State Police say that the shooter's two handguns had their serial numbers filed off. Hmmm..... ) With no questions asked at the gun shop? Would this fact trigger some questions being asked at the college? Aren't there prohibitions about possessing firearms on the campus? Nobody in the college administration cares about this? This kid could have recently developed paranoid schizophrenia! (He's the right age: "Onset of schizophrenia typically occurs in late adolescence or early adulthood, with males tending to show symptoms earlier than females." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranoid_schizophrenia ) WHY, OF COURSE, SELL HIM A FEW HANDGUNS! Nobody knows or cares? And the safety of tens of thousands of young adults concentrated on a major university campus is constantly at risk because these issues aren't being raised? And, of course, in response to this horrible event, the gun nuts are gonna say over the public airwaves, "More of you need to be packin'." And the gatekeepers of the public airwaves will let them say this till the cows come home because it is also in the interest of TV news for viewers to be "concerned" and frightened. So it goes. Gimme a break! Maybe we should start applying a little brain power to this problem.

Also: Let's at least distinguish two kinds of crime scenarios where the criminal carries a firearm: crimes against persons (e.g., rape, assault, murder) and crimes against property (e.g., stealing or destroying something). We would expect that increased numbers of concealed carry permits would have the most effect on the though processes of criminals thinking about the former.

[ParkTwain]

Tatnic sez:

"A friend of mine, a cop who was also in Nam, accidently shot his wife in the stomach while cleaning his handgun. And this guy has been around guns his whole life."


There are a lot of sketchily made handguns out there. It's a heaviliy underground supply and demand situation. What kind of quality control as to handgun manufacturing would you expect? There are lots of handgun accidents. The gun nuts don't ever seem to acknowledge this. There is an argument that they are inherently mechanically buggy and therefore unsafe to handle, that it's just a matter of time before any handgun malfunctions..

[mrmarket]

Nice idea for a movie, who's playing the role of you? This is more "gun fantasy" stuff.

The fact that the punk has a handgun to begin with is a function of the present gun laws, which are obviously broken. Like, why does a full-time college student at Va. Tech, most likely living on campus, need to purchase two handguns? (CNN reports today that the cops found a March 2007 receipt for purchase of a handgun in the shooter's backpack. However, it is also reported that the Va. State Police say that the shooter's two handguns had their serial numbers filed off. Hmmm..... ) With no questions asked at the gun stop? Would this fact trigger some questions being asked at the college? Aren't there prohibitions about possessing firearms on the campus?

Also: Let's at least distinguish two kinds of crime scenarios where the criminal carries a firearm: crimes against persons (e.g., rape, assault, murder) and crimes against property (e.g., stealing or destroying something). We would expect that increased numbers of concealed carry permits would have the most effect on the though processes of criminals thinking about the former.

A lot of this discussion revolves around a unique human condition which is their inability to properly assess probabilities of events with unpleasant consequences.

Humans are afraid of high places, even though the chances of falling are near zero. Humans are afraid of thunderstorms even though the chances of being struck are near zero. Humans are afraid of shark attacks even though the chances of being attackes are near zero. Humans are afraid of flying, even though the chances of being in a crash are near zero.

The problem is that these things do occur, albeit extremely infrequently. And when they do, they are all over the news and terrify people. How many people did irrational things after 9/11 to protect themselves from terrorists? If no one saw any of this on TV, would we have acted this way?

The chances of me being assaulted by someone, who has a weapon that might overpower or kill me, are extremely remote. The hassle of carrying a gun greatly outweighs that fear factor, for me.

[Tatnic]

I have had dozens of these pro / con gun discussions on the internet and in person.

I am not a gun owner and have never felt the need to own one. I always clearly state that I don't want to take people's guns away.

Regardless, it amazes me how hard some gun owners, and gun lovers, try to convince me that I should want to own a gun. Huh?

You hit the nail on the head Ernie...you feel perfectly safe without a handgun. Most handgun owners I know, especially those who carry them all the time with a concealed weapons permit, feel paranoid and are afraid to leave their houses without their "protection". Now, who is more afraid and feels unsafe? Obviously its the paranoid guy with the handgun hidden under his coat. And would you want to be around someone like that when loud noise goes off...a truck backfiring, Lye farting, whatever, that guy will pull out his protection and squeeze off a few before he realizes what he's done.

[Tatnic]

btw, WHAT are you hunting with a 300 win mag?

I like to hunt out west occassionally, where a 400 yard shot at an elk is fairly common. Did you know that they don't allow you to carry a .308 west of the mississippi unless you squat when you pee?! When I shoot my wife's .308 I can't even tell its gone off until I open the breach and eject the shell (I wear lots of hearing protection))....its such a feminine little cartridge

[IIC]

Quote:
Originally Posted by IIC
Well...I did look it up...And I suggest you check your facts before you go off stating MIS-FACTS:

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

http://www.jrsa.org/programs/Historical.pdf

The 1960's were nowhere near a peak per 100,000...Of course, you may think the FBI just makes this stuff up. Although who knows???...Maybe they do...Just like the politicians who keep saying that your neighborhood is safer.

I didn't catch the sources of those data sets. Not given.

Yes they are...the first one credits:

Source: FBI, Uniform Crime Reports

The second one says this on their homepage:

This Web site is funded in part through a grant from the Bureau of Justice Statistics, Office of Justice Programs, U.S. Department of Justice. Neither the U.S. Department of Justice nor any of its components operate, control, are responsible for, or necessarily endorse, this Web site (including, without limitation, its content, technical infrastructure, and policies, and any services or tools provided).

Are they a bunch of liars???...I have no idea, but feel free to pay the FBI for all their historical reports if you want...Doug

[mrmarket]

You hit the nail on the head Ernie...you feel perfectly safe without a handgun. Most handgun owners I know, especially those who carry them all the time with a concealed weapons permit, feel paranoid and are afraid to leave their houses without their "protection". Now, who is more afraid and feels unsafe? Obviously its the paranoid guy with the handgun hidden under his coat. And would you want to be around someone like that when loud noise goes off...a truck backfiring, Lye farting, whatever, that guy will pull out his protection and squeeze off a few before he realizes what he's done.

Precisely....then the next thing I hear is "Oh yea, how about when the crackhead breaks into your house in the middle of the night looking for drug money?"

These things don't happen in my neighborhood.

[Lyehopper]

My public service for the day....

Tatnic sez:

"A friend of mine, a cop who was also in Nam, accidently shot his wife in the stomach while cleaning his handgun. And this guy has been around guns his whole life."


There are a lot of sketchily made handguns out there. It's a heaviliy underground supply and demand situation. What kind of quality control as to handgun manufacturing would you expect? There are lots of handgun accidents. The gun nuts don't ever seem to acknowledge this. There is an argument that they are inherently mechanically buggy and therefore unsafe to handle, that it's just a matter of time before any handgun malfunctions..

Regardless of veteran or law enforcement status, Park's and Tatnic's "friends" were NOT being careful. I could elaborate but it's a futile argument here.

"Buggy equipment".... You can get killed by owning and operating a badly designed or poorly maintained forklift or tractor.... When researching any equipment, it pays to become educated about the product and purchase the best quality and technology and learn to maintain it properly. Might I suggest the following manufacturers.

http://www.kimberamerica.com/kpd/

http://www.paraord.com/product/category.html?cat=13

And if an autoloader seems a bit too complex? Might I also suggest the following simple high quality revolvers for the ladies.... or the mechanically challenged.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=14766&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15704&isFirearm=Y

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=14752&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15704&isFirearm=Y

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAFamily?type=Revolver&subtype=Double%20Action&famlst=9&variation=Satin%20Stainless

[IIC]

Demographics and poverty are the drivers.

The % of people below the poverty line is lower than it was in the early 60's...at least as of a few years ago:

http://www.census.gov/income/histpov/hstpov2.lst

[ParkTwain]

Here is an interesting local article (Norfolk, Va.) from 1996 that shows some the tactics for those pro and con the regulation of local handgun sales. Notice that the local police chief wants handgun regulation that goes beyond the state's level. (I'm trying to determine at the Va. Tech Univ. web site what their policy is about having handguns on campus.)

http://scholar.lib.vt.edu/VA-news/VA-Pilot/issues/1996/vp961106/11060362.htm

//
At the prodding of the gun dealers lobby, Councilman W. Randy Wright asked the council Tuesday to end the city's $15 surcharge on handgun purchases.

The fee pays for a criminal background check by police that is more thorough than the state's.

``Whether we like handguns or not, it's a legal business that is being driven out of our city by the fees we tack on,'' Wright said.

Norfolk Police Chief Melvin C. High spoke against removing the fee. He said it enables the city to catch criminals who buy guns that the state computerized instant-record check does not catch.

He did not give figures but said in an interview later that the city process can help prevent sales to those with mental problems and people who have a pattern of buying guns illegally.

``I don't think lessening regulations benefits anyone other than the gun dealers,'' High said.

Only Councilman Herbert M. Collins joined Wright in favoring the repeal.

At issue, said City Manager James B. Oliver, was whether the council wanted to change its policy of trying to create an anti-gun climate in the community.

Oliver reminded the council that some years ago it had decided to prohibit the annual gun show at the Scope arena as well as other gun-related events on city property.

Mayor Paul D. Fraim said the city's policy is sound.

``That we have some of the strongest restrictions on handgun purchases should be seen as a plus,'' Fraim said. Past councils have acted because ``we have believed that there are too many handguns, and they damage too many lives.''

But Wright, reading from a report he said was supplied by a gun dealers association that opposes the fee, said Hampton made almost half the gun sales in the region because it has unregulated gun sales. Yet Hampton's crime rate was lower than in some localities with tighter purchase requirements, Wright said.

In response, High noted that the crime rate in Norfolk has declined over the past few years, partially because of the extra fee and background checks on handgun sales.

In a memo supplied to the council, High said easing the sales of handguns would not support the city's community policing program.

``Regulating the sale of handguns is a part of the overall effort to reduce crime, violence and fear,'' High said in the memo.

Wright said the city is hassling a legal business. He and Collins also said they would favor reopening Scope to gun shows.
//

[ParkTwain]

The % of people below the poverty line is lower than it was in the early 60's...at least as of a few years ago:

http://www.census.gov/income/histpov/hstpov2.lst

Didn't you see the crime spike during the Depression that are shown on the (FBI?) charts you posted?

Also, as you know the U.S. Census data aren't the be-all and end-all of demographic, but it might be the best we have in the aggregate. P.S. How effectively does the Census capture demographic data about underprivileged neighborhoods in U.S. major cities?

[Lyehopper]

So where do you stand Mr. 300 win mag?

You hit the nail on the head Ernie...you feel perfectly safe without a handgun. Most handgun owners I know, especially those who carry them all the time with a concealed weapons permit, feel paranoid and are afraid to leave their houses without their "protection". Now, who is more afraid and feels unsafe? Obviously its the paranoid guy with the handgun hidden under his coat. And would you want to be around someone like that when loud noise goes off...a truck backfiring, Lye farting, whatever, that guy will pull out his protection and squeeze off a few before he realizes what he's done.

You did not answer my question Tatnic. Paranoid or not, let's try this again.

Do you think the law should make it legal for a citizen to carry a concealed handgun if they meet certain qualifications?

Do you think it should be illegal for any citizen to carry a concealed handgun?