Rob's Lobs

[skiracer]

Our cozy, quiet, little SW Virginia community is exploding onto the national news scene today as at least 22 people, including one gunamn, are dead in an apparent random shooting incident on the campus of Virginia Tech in Blacksburg. Actually there were two separate shootings about 2 hrs. apart, one at a dorm and the other in Norris Hall, an engineering building.

I never went to school there, but my father did. I installed some custom woodwork there probably 10 years ago. It's a beautiful campus.

Too bad none of the students were carrying firearms. They could have saved some innocent lives.

Boy my heart goes out to that whole area and the families of the victims. I heard it on the news a short while ago and couldn't believe my ears. I heard it was two separate incidents but was it one person or two. I also heard that the gunman or men were killed.

When I was a kid between 15 and 19 I met some high school girls from Blacksburg that came to Seaside Heights, NJ to work for the summer. I was a kid living in Lakehurst about 12 miles from Seaside and worked there in the summers from when I was 12 or so. A whole group of us got to be good friends. I used to stay in a boarding house for the summer and about 8 of them stayed in the same house. Me and a couple of my buddies would go down there for a couple of weekends every year for those 4 years.
All 8 of those girls were as pretty as you could imagine. They invited us to come on down. We had some great times with them. Absolutely beautiful countryside.

[ParkTwain]

Too bad none of the students were carrying firearms. They could have saved some innocent lives.

Why do you think this? Aren't you assuming a lot, both about the effect of the prevalence of handguns among the public (results of serious studies are mixed - see PDF page 104 in http://islandia.law.yale.edu/ayers/A...ue_article.pdf and http://mason.gmu.edu/~atabarro/PlaceboLawsFinal.doc ) and whether in a particular case having additional handguns in the mix would have made any difference?

[skiracer]

Why do you think this? Aren't you assuming a lot, both about the effect of the prevalence of handguns among the public (results of serious studies are mixed - see PDF page 104 in http://islandia.law.yale.edu/ayers/A...ue_article.pdf and http://mason.gmu.edu/~atabarro/PlaceboLawsFinal.doc ) and whether in a particular case having additional handguns in the mix would have made any difference?

I am an advocate of owning and bearing arms. And I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with Rob. We used to go bear hunting in both NY state and PA. During bear season in both states hunters were allowed to carry a side arm as a 2nd weapon in case a bear was attacking you or got the best of you and you had that safety net. Myself, my dad and a couple of his buddies and a couple of my buddies would be carrying our own when out in the field hunting. We would be up there about a week and would go out to eat every nite at several eateries and always ended up in one of several local bars. We never took our sidearms. I had been in the service and was familiar with it all but never wanted to take the gun with me. I always felt it was a precarious situation as everyone would have a sidearm strapped around their waists and a beer in their hand. By the end of the evening, for us usually around 10 pm at the latest, the crowds would be roaring. There were local guys and plenty of out-of-staters who were out of town and away from their wives and were letting loose with a sidearm at their side. We did that for several years without seeing any terrible incidents. There were drunks getting into fights but no one ever got the chance to pull out their weapon and fire off a few rounds that I know of. I will say this that I never went out without the knife that I had carried with me all throughout VietNam and even though drinking and having a good time talking and joking around I never relaxed my guard and was always just a second away from a reaction. The guns made it that way for me. I don't know if everyone else felt the same way but my cousin who was part of that crew and had served in the army felt the same way. I never read or heard of anyone getting shot up byb a hunter with a sidearm during that week anytime either.
As I said I never felt comfortable with everyone carrying a gun. To many chances of an over-reaction on someone's part. On the other hand there is something to say for having a weapon at home to protect yourself and family if someone is trying to break in or harm you. When I think about it completely I just can't justify a situation where everyone is carrying a gun. Just leaving to much at risk.

[Rob]

Why do you think this?

Because I feel sorry for people who are lined up and shot execution style with no way to defend themselves. Got any studies about that?

[ParkTwain]

Maybe you think it is a good idea to be able to obtain a weapon (or set of weapons held on the person) that allows one person to murder 50 other persons in 10 seconds. That kind of weapon should not be available to civilians.

You also seem to have a short historical memory about the methods and success of the nonviolent civil rights movement (much less Gandhi in India) in the U.S. in the 1950s and 60s, whereby minority activists convinced the general society to change their laws and behavior without use of violence. I'm talking about the ongoing need for people of conscience to constantly remind the general society that these acts of violence, often perpetrated by those (typically males) enraptured by "gun fantasies" such as seen in movies and on TV, are basically COWARDLY, SHAMEFUL ACTS that inflict huge pain on society. People need to be reminded that there are other ways to deal with personal pain and conflict, and society must always be providing such resources to help persons in the middle of such personal conflict.

Increasing the number of weapons in the general society is a regression in the civilization of that society. The right wing political activists in the U.S. uses a fear-mongering rhetoric to scare people into dividing into smaller political groups, thereby making them all more controllable via mass media. Please don't let yourself fall into that category of citizens. In fact, crime of most sorts has decreased in the U.S. due primarily to DEMOGRAPHIC factors. There was more crime in the 1960s and 70s due to the relatively larger number of baby-boomer teenagers and under 30-y.o. persons living that time in the society. Look it up.

[Rob]

Quiz

Park, I understand what you're saying. But you are approaching the situation from a macro point of view, while my earlier comment was from a micro perspective.

To illustrate my point, here's a multiple choice question:

You are in a classroom with perhaps 20 or 30 other people when a deranged killer enters and starts shooting people one by one. You would prefer ....

A. To have a loaded gun.
B. To be unarmed.

If you answered B, then I would question your ability to comprehend the situation.

[ParkTwain]

If I find a lump on the side of my neck, I would like to have a medical degree, but as of today I don't. This logic could apply to anything unfortunate that might happen in one's life. I don't think discussion of this type gets us anywhere. What is more fruitful is to identify the root cause.

You are talking tactics, I am talking strategy. There are other kinds of tactics as well to address these events.

In these events we are seeing the results of decades of social engineering. I would like to turn around the direction of the social engineering. In the meantime there might be additional antisocial acts perpetrated against the innocent.

[Tatnic]

Our cozy, quiet, little SW Virginia community is exploding onto the national news scene today as at least 22 people, including one gunamn, are dead in an apparent random shooting incident on the campus of Virginia Tech in Blacksburg. Actually there were two separate shootings about 2 hrs. apart, one at a dorm and the other in Norris Hall, an engineering building.

I never went to school there, but my father did. I installed some custom woodwork there probably 10 years ago. It's a beautiful campus.

Too bad none of the students were carrying firearms. They could have saved some innocent lives.

Not that my living in Blacksburg means anything, but I can tell you that unless you are properly trained having a firearm is more of a danger than a defense. In 99% of the time, your average Joe is not gonna be able to defend himself or others in this type of carnage...he/she will just freak out and freeze. I think you've been watching way too much tv..

[Rob]

Oh, for cryin' out loud. Can't a person express a human emotion without being cross-examined and impugned? 32 innocent people are dead.

Would it make you feel better if I said: Yeah you're right, it's a good thing they didn't have anything to fight back with? Give me a break.

[Lyehopper]

I feel your pain Rob....

Not that my living in Blacksburg means anything, but I can tell you that unless you are properly trained having a firearm is more of a danger than a defense. In 99% of the time, your average Joe is not gonna be able to defend himself or others in this type of carnage...he/she will just freak out and freeze. I think you've been watching way too much tv..

No Tatnic, your formerly living in Blacksburg doesn't mean a damned thing.... You see, in the Commonwealth of VA you are required by law to have "training" before you can acquire a concealed/carry permit..... Sooooo if someone who came in contact with this asshole today WAS indeed legally carrying a concealed firearm? They WOULD have stood a damned good chance of fighting back and leaving HIS brains splattered all over the blackboard, thus potentially saving many lives.

Real problem is Tatnic; most of "your average joe" students (and faculty) on college campus' today are a bunch of left-wing/anti-gun pinko Commies (kinda like you and Park) who think they can analyze or negotiate themselves out of harms way. In my opinion, you meet firepower with firepower, plain and simple. And no, I didn't form this opinion from watching too much TV. I just realize how the real world works.

[Lyehopper]

In fact, crime of most sorts has decreased in the U.S. due primarily to DEMOGRAPHIC factors. There was more crime in the 1960s and 70s due to the relatively larger number of baby-boomer teenagers and under 30-y.o. persons living that time in the society. Look it up.

Demographic factors....Sheesh!.... The "crime rate" up Lyehopper Hollow is nonexistent... look it up.

[IIC]

I'll pass on this arguement...although I am somewhat of an authority on the subject...


However...on my way home from work I was thinking about the comments and it dawned on me...When I went to college at the Univ. of Nebraska circa early '70's it seemed like almost all the students had guns...At least the guys...I even bot a 22 single shot from some guy for 10 bux.

As I recall, they were mostly rifles/shot guns as most of those guys were big hunters...I only went pheasant hunting once...they never invited me again tho...I think some of my friends were a bit worried that I might accidently shoot them in the blinds...Didn't seem like much fun to me anyway.

[IIC]

In fact, crime of most sorts has decreased in the U.S. due primarily to DEMOGRAPHIC factors. There was more crime in the 1960s and 70s due to the relatively larger number of baby-boomer teenagers and under 30-y.o. persons living that time in the society. Look it up.

Well...I did look it up...And I suggest you check your facts before you go off stating MIS-FACTS:

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

http://www.jrsa.org/programs/Historical.pdf

The 1960's were nowhere near a peak per 100,000...Of course, you may think the FBI just makes this stuff up. Although who knows???...Maybe they do...Just like the politicians who keep saying that your neighborhood is safer.

[Karel]

Park, I understand what you're saying. But you are approaching the situation from a macro point of view, while my earlier comment was from a micro perspective.

To illustrate my point, here's a multiple choice question:

You are in a classroom with perhaps 20 or 30 other people when a deranged killer enters and starts shooting people one by one. You would prefer ....

A. To have a loaded gun.
B. To be unarmed.

If you answered B, then I would question your ability to comprehend the situation.

What about A, but only in that situation?

The problem with the question is, that deranged killers are rather scarce. To have everyone carry a gun for just such a circumstance seems a bit wild to me. I have never carried or even touched a gun, but what ski says makes sense to me. I think that, apart from activities like hunting (which don't appeal much to vegetarian like me), I wouldn't like a place where everyone is carrying a gun, including me, because 1) you have to be constantly aware of the fact that you are carrying a gun; 2) you have to be constantly aware of the fact that everyone else is carrying a gun. We probably would all have to be very polite!

What happened in Blacksburg is a tragedy. I don't think right after a tragedy is a good time for policy discussions.

I would like to express my sympathy and offer my prayers. Does anyone know of a place to do that? VT doesn't have anything like that up yet, I hope they find the time to do that soon.

Regards,

Karel

[Rob]

More Facts

Here are a few more facts:

1. At no time did I ever say one word about anyone being able to carry a gun that is powerful enough to kill 50 people in ten seconds.

2. At no time did I suggest that anyone should be able to carry a firearm without being trained in how to handle it properly.

3. At no time did I offer the opinion the everyone should carry a gun.

I understand the anti-gun arguements. I just don't happen to agree with them. The Constitution of the United States has this little provision called the 2nd Ammendment, which says in part, "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Nevermind the fruitless arguements about the "well regulated militia" part of the ammendment; the right shall not be infringed, period.

I merely lamented the fact that these kids, and apparently some older persons as well, were being shot to death one-by-one-by-one, and not one of them had the ability stop this homicidal maniac. I do not own a gun myself, but I live in an area where many of my neighbors do. This fact is not a threat to me. I'm glad a lot of people own guns, because the fact that criminals and potential criminals don't know which ones tends to keep them at bay.

I would like to express my sympathy and offer my prayers. Does anyone know of a place to do that? VT doesn't have anything like that up yet, I hope they find the time to do that soon.

Virginia Tech is having server problems, even before this event. But here is some information in answer to your question:

http://www.collegemedia.com/stories/416-915pm-shapiro.html

http://www.roanoke.com has a guest book for victims. There are entries there from people all over. I've seen at least one entry from the Netherlands.