Skiracer's stock slopes

[skiracer]

do you know into what market your broker submitted your order (it might have been in the same market that you were watching)? You may need to read the fine print in your brokerage agreement to get (at least some of) this info, short of calling the support person or his/her manager. the bigger online brokerage can retain a submitted order to be filled in their own (or their preferred agent's) order flow, which can mean that your order is not exposed to enough of the "market" to give your stop order a decent chance of being hit.

Park,
I was told this morning that the stop didn't trigger because the AMEX had halted trading on HOM. I didn't know or understand that the trade had to go through the AMEX to get done. I was under the impression that once the stop was triggered it just got done through a central clearing house that handled Options Express's trades. Aside from knowing how to do the actual trade online through the two options that I have, one is a trading platform through Medved Quotetracker that is a direct link to Options Express, and the other is directly through the Options Express website, I really never gave it any thought as to once I hit the button where the trade gets routed to get done. Options Express has always been fast enough for me, usually within 5 seconds on "at the market orders, and the limit orders as they trigger at the specified price limit. This mornings situation was a first for me and up to now I didn't realize this type of situation could happen. It was quite exasperating to see the stop not trigger and to still be holding the position while watching the price plummet. They never really gave me what I would call an adequate explanation an at the time I was somewhat upset as I was out almost $4000 through no fault of my own and they weren't going to make good on the trigger at $5.44 because their reasoning was that the AMEX had halted trade on the stock. Tomorrow morning I'll be in a much more rational mindset to be patient and willing to talk to someone about the situation. I've got a considerable amount of money in my trading account with Options Express an I do a number of trades a week and month through that account. If they want to keep the business they're going to have to make good on the difference between where my stop was orginally placed and where I finally exited the position. They're also going to have to give me some kind of guarantee that they will stand behind my stops to some equitable degree regardless of the circumstances or I'm out of there in a heartbeat and they lose the business.

[dmk112]

Ski, I told you I didn't like the way it was acting. I sold my shares @ 5.45 today as well. Should have bailed early on my instinct.

[ParkTwain]

You can search for history of halted stocks for NASDAQ and AMEX in one place, here:

http://nasdaqtrader.com/asp/TradeHaltHistIndex.asp

You can also query whether there is a history of any halts for a given stock by entering its symbol. Looks like this site shows no history of trading halts for HOM.

I would ask your brokerage for an authoritative and correct answer to your question.

I have seen the trade in a stock pass right by my own stops on a given day. I have commented on other boards that a stop loss order is not, in fact, a fully reliable mechanism. It depends on the stock, the order mechanism in use on the exchange where that stock is traded, your broker's order flow arrangements, whether the stop loss order is for an "odd lot" of shares (these are less likely to be filled for any kind of order, including for a stop loss transaction), and how "fast" the market is in a stock on a given day, etc.

[skiracer]

Ski, I told you I didn't like the way it was acting. I sold my shares @ 5.45 today as well. Should have bailed early on my instinct.

DMK,
Runner said the volitaility was very high and that it looked like it could explode. It just exploded in the wrong direction. Did you or anyone else hear or see anything explaining why the hugh sellof.
Sisterwin2 mentioned something about some underhanded selling. What did she mean by that or was it just her terminology for some big holders bailing out. I was watching it this morning at the open and after about 20/30 minutes into the day it just fell off the table.

[dmk112]

I have no clue why that sell off ocurred, anything to do with that private placement??

[sisterwin2]

DMK,
Runner said the volitaility was very high and that it looked like it could explode. It just exploded in the wrong direction. Did you or anyone else hear or see anything explaining why the hugh sellof.
Sisterwin2 mentioned something about some underhanded selling. What did she mean by that or was it just her terminology for some big holders bailing out. I was watching it this morning at the open and after about 20/30 minutes into the day it just fell off the table.
__________________
I was talking about that private placement..... Remember I am new and dont have all the terms down yet. I wonder if I ever will. I never heard of private placements and it just tic me off so I let the stop hit and never returned. Maybe oneday I will understand what happen with that private sale. I am not even sure its called a private sale..... it happen about 10 days or so ago. Feel your pain. Learning alot from it also....

[ParkTwain]

Here is one interesting possible explanation, picked up at the Yahoo board for HOM:

//
Re: No volume at the crash
by: market_mercenary 12/12/05 06:01 pm
Msg: 42026 of 42074

the drop on 50K was a result of the specialist not having opened yet.....all the trading was thru ECN's.....and it fell because the position and size of sale was known to those who were trading within the ECN before the specialist opened....its not complicated.
I'll post some thoughts in an hour or so.
//

If this is true, it might explain why the price would drop right through your stop. (That is, your stop loss might not have been visible to traders at the ECNs. Not sure how that works.) There was very little volume traded during the time interval of the big drop this morning. To verify, you would need to look up the MM for HOM (found at the nasdaq.com web site, I think, or maybe at nasdaqtrader.com), then query that MM or perhaps someone at the AMEX. Don't know.

[skiracer]

Here is one interesting possible explanation, picked up at the Yahoo board for HOM:

//
Re: No volume at the crash
by: market_mercenary 12/12/05 06:01 pm
Msg: 42026 of 42074

the drop on 50K was a result of the specialist not having opened yet.....all the trading was thru ECN's.....and it fell because the position and size of sale was known to those who were trading within the ECN before the specialist opened....its not complicated.
I'll post some thoughts in an hour or so.
//

If this is true, it might explain why the price would drop right through your stop. (That is, your stop loss might not have been visible to traders at the ECNs. Not sure how that works.) There was very little volume traded during the time interval of the big drop this morning. To verify, you would need to look up the MM for HOM (found at the nasdaq.com web site, I think, or maybe at nasdaqtrader.com), then query that MM or perhaps someone at the AMEX. Don't know.

So do you think that this could have been a ploy on someone's part to push the price down radically and then buy up as much as they could at the lower price The volume today was almost triple the average volume. I did notice at the open that it took quite some time before any trades were shown. At least 10 minutes or so before anything showed up on my raw data feed.
The more I think of it the more I believe some large position holder was liquidating their position and wanted to try to hold the price up as long as they could but the cat got out of the bag. Your premise about the ECN thing is valid though because that would have limited the exposure for awhile after the opening bell.

[grebnet]

Hom

Well I'm hoping this was all just manipulation and daytrading today with HOM . I filled 1000 at $4.96 . this will either look like a great fill or grabbing on to a falling knife. (I really do think this was a great fill )

P.S. ( I think this is important) On Nov 23 HOM announced they were raising $ thru a secondary. On that day, My Father emailed HOM asking if their earlier guidance would be diluted by this new offerring. Here was the exact reply. (which I think they should have made public)

Our guidance for next year included the impact from this transaction.

Best regards,

Rick J. O'Brien

[skiracer]

Well I'm hoping this was all just manipulation and daytrading today with HOM . I filled 1000 at $4.96 . this will either look like a great fill or grabbing on to a falling knife. (I really do think this was a great fill )

P.S. ( I think this is important) On Nov 23 HOM announced they were raising $ thru a secondary. On that day, My Father emailed HOM asking if their earlier guidance would be diluted by this new offerring. Here was the exact reply. (which I think they should have made public)

Our guidance for next year included the impact from this transaction.

Best regards,

Rick J. O'Brien

Greb,
I'm out of the position. I would re-enter but it will have to prove it to me first. Mid-morning I thought it was a fluke and was going to recoup what it lost but I didn't like the way it finished off the day. I'll be keeping an eye on it though. Wish you good luck with it. Tomorrow should be an interesting day with it. I'm out because I have to honor my strategy, plan, and stops. If I violate those I have nothing. It also made me sick to my stomach today thinking that it was a ploy an that alot of stockholders had gotten played by bigger interests in the know. I hope that's not the case.

[mystiky]

Hey Ski,

Sorry to hear about your loss today.

If I can put in my 2 cents worth --- I had stuff like that happen on E*Trade while trading stuff like OIH, QQQQ and a few others. They route the order to god knows where, and espeically when it's an AMEX stock (vs. NYSE), it always becomes some sort of a headache.

I have fought them a number of times, and only maybe 1 time out of 15 had they ever ruled in MY favor. They always protect their market makers.

I assume that AMTD / OptionXpress / Schwab are very similiar. Just don't get your hopes up that threatening to leave them will suddenly have them change their initial ruling.

Last but not least -- I don't even have a day-traders account for my trading. I hardly ever buy 5K or something to try to get a 10 cent move out of it and then dump it. So E*Trade works nicely for me. As much as I looked at IB, it doesnt suit me. But I on;ly hear good things about them.

Good luck!

Park,
I was told this morning that the stop didn't trigger because the AMEX had halted trading on HOM. I didn't know or understand that the trade had to go through the AMEX to get done. I was under the impression that once the stop was triggered it just got done through a central clearing house that handled Options Express's trades. Aside from knowing how to do the actual trade online through the two options that I have, one is a trading platform through Medved Quotetracker that is a direct link to Options Express, and the other is directly through the Options Express website, I really never gave it any thought as to once I hit the button where the trade gets routed to get done. Options Express has always been fast enough for me, usually within 5 seconds on "at the market orders, and the limit orders as they trigger at the specified price limit. This mornings situation was a first for me and up to now I didn't realize this type of situation could happen. It was quite exasperating to see the stop not trigger and to still be holding the position while watching the price plummet. They never really gave me what I would call an adequate explanation an at the time I was somewhat upset as I was out almost $4000 through no fault of my own and they weren't going to make good on the trigger at $5.44 because their reasoning was that the AMEX had halted trade on the stock. Tomorrow morning I'll be in a much more rational mindset to be patient and willing to talk to someone about the situation. I've got a considerable amount of money in my trading account with Options Express an I do a number of trades a week and month through that account. If they want to keep the business they're going to have to make good on the difference between where my stop was orginally placed and where I finally exited the position. They're also going to have to give me some kind of guarantee that they will stand behind my stops to some equitable degree regardless of the circumstances or I'm out of there in a heartbeat and they lose the business.

[spikefader]

Spike,
Did you ever hear of anything like that before. It's a first with me. I don't know if I can do anything about it but it really upsets me. I was watching the raw data screen on Quotetracker and watching the stock plummet and the stop just didn't trigger. Never saw anything like it and when I called they said the AMEX had halted trading on the stock and they couldn't do anything about it. I'm going to be opening an account at IB, funding it, and then take my time an move everything out of Options Express. I was going to take a hit at $5.44 regardless if the stop had triggered but that was part of the plan initially so I could live with that but when I saw HOM go to $4.89 an I was still holding it that was a bad feeling. What a way to start the week. Blew two nice trades and gains with SIRF and PDLI down the toilet.
Actually I never got out of the saddle. Bought my POTW play TOMO this morning at $21 and then right at the close got some ELN at $12.65. I wish I had gotten in on this one alot earlier but earlier I didn't think the drug was going to make it back on the market but my feelings have changed. I can see them putting it back on. I'm going to sit on a few shares for awhile to see which way the wind blows.

Well I've seen similar situations where broker platforms have had issues and messed an order up, some have been made good, many not, or someone's stop has been cancelled for a number of reasons that brokers' terms specify, and the customer either isn't aware of the rule or weren't notified that the orders were cancelled.

Most brokers have design their terms to cover them in any case so it's tough to get them to admit fault and make good. Often the reason they do is PR and size of account they may be losing.

And in my personal experience, I've seen my own stops get blown by as price plummets on me, but the fault is mine since I've chosen a stop limit order and price fell so fast my limit was left for dust. But that's no fault of an exchange or broker; it's my own problem, and a risk I was prepared to take on. It's just pure price action being too volatile for my predefined stop rules. I've been pretty luck in this regard though and haven't been hit too badly, touch wood.

But back to your issue, a simple call to the AMEX exchange to ask if HOM was really halted will clarify if your broker is lying to you. But it doesn't really matter - least it wouldn't to me. Their platform just doesn't cut it. And unless they can show the fault was yours (i.e it wasn't a GTC order but merely a day order on the day you put it in) then they should be investigating the matter for you and attempting to do the right thing; not just giving you some lame excuse that's yet to be determined to be truthful and bidding your call farewell.

But as a side note, to the chart of HOM, go back to the gap down on volume, then the formation of the descending triangle, it's really not surprizing that it fell fast today. That's what can happen, and I don't think it's anything too out of the ordinary. Logical stop was under the triangle 5.72. And once that gets taken out, support fails, and there aren't many bidders who like the issue, it's gonna drop fast. And greb that entry was great indeed. But note this; it's expanding channel long today. And if today's low fails you don't want it long imo. But good luck with it.

[skiracer]

Spike,
There were a number of factors that went into taking the position initially. I really liked the stock to start with and you only go into these things because you're thinking only positive things. Setting the stop is a protective measure that varys with each of our risk tolerances an our entry points. Hindsight is always easier after the fact and what I should have done through the course of holding the position when I saw things going the way I did is another matter. I was having some concern and misgivings about the way the position was tracking, the chart, and several other factors that were giving off somewhat negative signals. But with the stop in place I was comfortable and thought that I was protected up to that point and ready to accept the loss at that point since that was my within my initial plan and strategy. I really never thought it was going to go that far that fast but it did and that's it I guess. I'll move on, but in reviewing the trade an I went over it a number of times yesterday and in my sleep last night there were some signals that I overlooked for whatever reasons an, like I said, in hingsight it's always easier to say I should have done this or that which I probably should have. It's over now an basically forgotten except for some mind searching I have to do about Options Express and their handling of the whole matter. I'll make the loss up as I always do when it goes this way. It's just a matter of letting it go and not carrying the baggage around with you any longer than necessary.

[spikefader]

Spike, ... just a matter of letting it go and not carrying the baggage around with you any longer than necessary.

Amen bro! I know you'll take the good out of it and turn it to your benefit! May they be pretty and perfect and act right for a while now

[skiracer]

I bought this the other day. Anyone else been looking at it or in it. Nice daily and weekly. Picture perfect ascending triangle and double bottom cup and handle. Any comments? Sorry Karel, forgot to downsize the weekly.

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